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baldycop
18-02-09, 19:41
Just trying to find some more off road green lanes been onto Northants Gov site they list roads closed to all motor traffic but still open to bikes Yippee, just got to Map them now.
Might be worth looking at other .Gov sites to see if they do similar.
Sorry if it has been done beofre
http://www3.northamptonshire.gov.uk/Transport/ROW/byways_closures.htm
Apparently you can ride from silverstone onto warks without going on road (so legend has it) anyone know?

digga
19-02-09, 11:09
Ask the local TRF??

Timpo
19-02-09, 11:24
BC, you got a fair few lanes there, good stuff.
Unfortunately not enough CCs do TROing this way, instead they lay a blanket TRO on the routes.
Obviously one 4x4 does far more damage than a bike, or a group of bikes come to think of it.

Get the routes marked down then, and get out there. Take your camera, flask and butties, then when home you can fire a ride report on here for us.:thumb2

:popcorn

Timpo.

PS. I may be after a ride down that way sometime.......

AdamA
19-02-09, 11:28
Some CCs are also better than others when it comes to advertising what is open and what isn't.
This may be of some use for those that aren't so good:
http://www.trailwise.org.uk/gmaps/gmap.htm

John Armstrong
19-02-09, 11:50
From this post:

http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1611681&postcount=7

I used the above link and found this:

http://www.trailwise.org.uk/do_quickfind.php?uid=SD6856-01 which explains to me the sign I saw :)

Timpo
19-02-09, 12:59
From this post:

http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1611681&postcount=7

I used the above link and found this:

http://www.trailwise.org.uk/do_quickfind.php?uid=SD6856-01 which explains to me the sign I saw :)

Yes JA, but most of the time, Highways standard signs are not displayed on Byways.
If a TRO is in place, it should be displayed on an A4 sheet giving details of the order and a mapping showing the route under the TRO. These are usually fixed to a tree/post at either end of the route.

OK, there will be byways in places where signage is used, and there are also signs used on UCRs with Byway signs on them. It's a bit of a mess.......
If you find anything your not sure about, give your Highways or ROW department a ring, giving the problem and map reference. This is also used by the CC as history of use.

If you find problems and get it sorted, post it up so all can see.:thumb2


Timpo.

Wreford Miles
19-02-09, 13:03
I'm currently looking at the Bedfordshire map to add to my Herts routes - Northampton's the next one up, we could build a biggy ;-)

I did a recce to the East last Sunday and found some good lanes to build in

My current idea is to build a StAlbans to the East Coast route

AdamA
19-02-09, 13:12
Yes JA, but most of the time, Highways standard signs are not displayed on Byways.
But by law they should be.

As such, on any lane where it isn't displayed, the TRO cannot be legally enforced.

That's not to say I am suggesting you ride any such lane, just that if you were to by accident they cannot prosecute you for doing so and they have neglected their legal duty to sign the lane correctly.

The standard excuse for not signing them correctly is that the signs are unsightly and out of keeping with the countryside. Unfortunately for them this is no excuse.

An unofficial reason could well be that the CC really don't care who uses the lane and have only TROd it to prevent paying large maintenance costs or to keep local landowners happy. Again, illegal actions but we know some councils aren't averse to using them already don't we?

John Armstrong
19-02-09, 13:19
Almost as if they make the rules up as they go along, to suit what's easiest and then throw the book at anyone who hasn't complied with the 101 different opinions of what the "authorities" think should / should not / has to be / has not to be there.

AdamA
19-02-09, 13:22
Almost as if they make the rules up as they go along, to suit what's easiest and then throw the book at anyone who hasn't complied with the 101 different opinions of what the "authorities" think should / should not / has to be / has not to be there.

Pretty much exactly what they do.
One good reason to pay a few quid each year to the TRF. That not only funds the fight to keep the few remaining lanes open, it means that should you get legal issues from riding somewhere the TRF say is legal, their experts will help you fight it.

Timpo
19-02-09, 13:47
But by law they should be.
As such, on any lane where it isn't displayed, the TRO cannot be legally enforced.


A copy of the TRO notice (A4 sized so keep your eyes peeled) will be enough for a prosecution if a user is caught disobeying the TRO.
Sure, unclasified county roads get a little more care when CCs apply closure's signage, but the Rows are often botched.
But signs (full on highway code spec) should never be taken a gospel, same as OS sheets. Landowners mount signs illegally, and also OS sheets are incorrect ('in' and 'against' our favour).
I absolutely agree that TRF membership is the best way to ride legally. You'll soon pick up the lingo and proceedure with CCs.

Best of luck with your searching. It's good to see folks are still keen to research routes with the CCs.

Timpo.

AdamA
19-02-09, 17:00
A copy of the TRO notice (A4 sized so keep your eyes peeled) will be enough for a prosecution if a user is caught disobeying the TRO.
Is this opinion or fact?
The ROW officer for Hampshire stated at a recent public inquiry that they are unable to prosecute if the signs are not in place.
They post the TRO notice and hope that it will prevent people using it, however they cannot prosecute if they do. If too many people get reported using it still then they must post the signs to enable them to prosecute, but they do not like to do so initially due to the environmental impact.

His words not mine, tho it is my understanding of the situation.

Statutory Instrument 1996 No. 2489
The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 ( http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19962489_en_4.htm#mdiv18 ) states:

Traffic signs
18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—

(a) before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;

(b) the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force; and

(c) in a case where the order revokes, amends or alters the application of a previous order, the removal or replacement of existing traffic signs as the authority considers requisite to avoid confusion to road users by signs being left in the wrong positions.
And the DEFRA document Making the Best of Byways:
( http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-countryside/pdf/access/crow/bestofbyways.pdf )
states on p27

Traffic regulation orders
are enforceable only if they are signed in
accordance with the Traffic Sign Regulations
(Statutory Instrument 2002 No. 3113), even in
rural or other settings where the use of such
signs could be considered inappropriate.


No sign = no order (effectively).

But what do I know? :confused:

Gaz
19-02-09, 18:04
You are confusing what Timpo means by 'notice' with what you mean by 'sign', I think.

i.e when Timpo says "A copy of the TRO notice, keep your eyes peeled etc" he means the physical sign by the side of the track.

And when you say "They post the TRO notice" I think you mean that they make knowledge of the TRO public but you are not talking about the sign?

Possibly.

AdamA
19-02-09, 18:19
You are confusing what Timpo means by 'notice' with what you mean by 'sign', I think.

No, I am not.

I meant (as I said) that by law they must put up (and maintain!) the relevant traffic sign from below (619, 619.1 and 619.2 - there are others that could be used but they are the most common and relevant):
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/02311339.gif

AdamA
19-02-09, 18:42
And btw, I believe (but may be wrong) the notice of order (the A4 sheet) only has to be displayed on the lane for a temporary TRO (it has to be in the local paper for a permanent TRO).
Feel free to read the regs and see yourself:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1992/uksi_19921215_en_1.htm - Temporary.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19962489_en_1.htm - Permanent.
(Both say pretty much the same thing about traffic signs tho.)
It would be unreasonable to expect them to maintain a paper notice infinitely for a permanent closure, hence the traffic signs are so important.

Not to mention that traffic entering a road or lane cannot be expected to stop and look at every post/branch/gate in the vicinity to see if they can legally use it. That's why traffic signs must be of the prescribed type and size, so they are obvious to all types of user, on all types of rights of way, regardless of type of TRO.