Well, I may regret posting this ....

...but here goes anyway. This general subject has been done to death and beyond elsewhere but I just thought this would be of interest to S10 owners.

I recently had my S10 remapped at Hilltop and am very pleased with the results: the bike runs very smoothly and is even more pleasurable to ride with the immediacy of "Sport" mode now coupled with the smoothness of "Touring", the fuel economy is a little better. I went for Hilltop rather than the Flash malarkey for the following reasons:

It was a long drive (Essex) for me to get it done in the UK and I really didn't fancy removing and posting the ECU. I have a long and proud history of cocking up 5 minute procedures.
Although Geoff (Hilltop) leaves the lower gear rev restrictions pretty much as they are, this didn't bother me as I tend to change up fairly early in any case and I also do tend to assume that the Yamaha Engineers may have put the restrictions there for a reason.
On the positive side, I know and trust Geoff and the mapping is, of course, bespoke to my bike. Also, as this is the third bike I have had done, I qualified for the current "repeat offender" special offer so the bespoke mapping was cheaper than a CPU flash. No contest really.

I put my bike back to standard for the remap. Previously it had a Remus hexacone can. The bike is all I want or need in terms of performance so I'll be selling the Remus now.

If you're interested in numbers (I'm not particularly, TBH), power went from a humble 89 to a near respectable 97. It might have been interesting to have left the Remus on but hey ho. Peak torque went from 69 to 81 ft-lb.

There's loads of torque now from low revs and right across the range and I suspect this is what makes this sort of remapping feel so desirable. Also, I assume that the improvement in fuel economy (I realise more power/better fuel is a paradox but have experienced this on all 3 bikes ) is because you don't have to go to higher revs to get decent torque levels.

That's quite a difference, I wonder what he could do for my MM

That's an impressive return - how much did the remap cost?

Seat of the pants feel is where it counts I think. But those numbers do seem impressive.
I must get mine done when I've got the money. ..but will use the essex guys as they are a lot closer for me.

Lord Snooty said:

That's an impressive return - how much did the remap cost?

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Wot he said and where/who is hilltop?

Hilltop Motorcycles, Earl Shilton, Leicestershire.

Google it.

Cost is around £350

Blackal said:

Hilltop Motorcycles, Earl Shilton, Leicestershire.

Google it.

Cost is around £350

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Yup...if you have had a bike done before, there was an offer of £100 off. I paid £250. Not sure whether that offer still applies but excellent value given that your bike gets a few runs on the dyno. The treatment doesn't convert your S10 into an awesome R1, by the way...as above, it's about how it feels...which is "right". (I don't have any connection with Hilltop, by the way except as a punter).

What was your long term average fuel consumption prior to the Hilltop magic and how much has it improved?

I ran through a tank of fuel on Sunday. At the start of the day the average was 51.5mpg, afterwards it was 55.6. A fair bit of genuine 70-75 dual carriageway cruising and the rest on A and B roads having some peg down fun. If it gets better than that I'll be very happy to invest the £350 and get more performance as well.

Looking at the graphs, both the horsepower and the torque have been increased significantly and smoothed out, it should transform the pick up all through the rev range, Hilltop do seem to get good results.

Can't argue with those graphs. Having the restrictions in gears 1-3 removed does make a major difference though if you fancy a bit more fun.

Packer said:

What was your long term average fuel consumption prior to the Hilltop magic and how much has it improved?

I ran through a tank of fuel on Sunday. At the start of the day the average was 51.5mpg, afterwards it was 55.6. A fair bit of genuine 70-75 dual carriageway cruising and the rest on A and B roads having some peg down fun. If it gets better than that I'll be very happy to invest the £350 and get more performance as well.

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Must admit, I don't follow fuel consumption that closely these days. When I commuted (120 miles+ a day) on my GS, I used to get 45-48mpg very consistently...I tracked it carefully because I was spending a lot of money on petrol...I never managed anything like the mpg some seem to achieve (despite not getting my pegs down that often). The S10 fared a little better when I bought it...probably 48-49mpg typically. I have only gone through two or three tankfuls since visiting Hilltop but I'm averaging 51-52mpg. Not scientific and YMMV. I definitely wouldn't visit Hilltop to save fuel but it's reassuring that the improvements probably aren't going to affect your mpg adversely. What I like about the S10 is that I really can do 200 miles between tank fills which is handy for touring.

Tobers said:

Can't argue with those graphs. Having the restrictions in gears 1-3 removed does make a major difference though if you fancy a bit more fun.

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+ 1

Tobers said:

Can't argue with those graphs. Having the restrictions in gears 1-3 removed does make a major difference though if you fancy a bit more fun.

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Geoff did explain why he prefers not to remove the low gear restrictions. I nodded wisely while he talked and adopted my most intelligent and concerned expression but, in truth, didn't understand a word. I'm fairly sure I had him completely fooled. However, my mind was actually rather taken up by the prospect of a bacon sandwich and cup of excellent coffee at the cafe down the road. (The "Cob Shop"...highly recommended. I have no connection with them, either).

Tobers said:

Can't argue with those graphs. Having the restrictions in gears 1-3 removed does make a major difference though if you fancy a bit more fun.

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Indeed, a lot depends how you ride, but if quick progress on tight roads is your bag the restrictions must go.

It may be a case of hilltop not being able to remove the low gear restrictions, I know with R1 ECU's Yamaha had some tamper protection on the butterfly timings, may be the code for them is encrypted making them hard to alter, or a checksum used so when they were changed the bike would throw an error code, these can be hard to workaround unless your an ECU programming whizz.

ECU-U and others have managed to hack these codes, I know some VAG ECU's once upon a time would use a checksum and if you got your car re-programmed the dealer would know when they plugged it into the diag machines, some companies also managed to work around this and provide flashes that the dealer could not detect.

I know the Yamaha bike dealers have no equipment capable of reading ECU contents so cannot tell you have changed anything, although riding a flashed bike back to back with a stock one would reveal something has changed, but most dealers mechanics ride so many bikes they are unlikely to recall the last S10 they rode and that yours feels that different.


The low down restrictions are very severe, I have previously posted graphs on this, but your looking at about 25% less power at 40mph in 3rd gear - a typical overtake scenario so, I do not see any sense in leaving them in.

I found them very noticeable as it seemed to coincide with overtaking Arthur and Dorris on there Sunday drive, exiting roundabouts and short-shifting from 1st - 2nd when cruising two-up.

I made sure I had my flash done before doing my two-up Alpine tour as I would suspect they would really be felt on mountain switch-backs (and the original launch reports had Journo's questioning power at altitude when they got to ride in the mountains - I suspect it was that they were no longer able to thrash the bikes flat out and encountered these restrictions and did not figure out what the real issue was)

As long as you stay in 4th gear, or above about 4,000 rpm in 1st - 3rd then they will not make a much difference - just don't ride a flashed bike or you will want the restrictions removed.

The cleaner fuelling of the Hilltop bike will also help a little as it will still have a bit more go than stock low down, and probably below 50% throttle will not really be much different at all, just when you really open the taps with a flashed bike the taps really open, as opposed to the "computer says no" you get when asking a standard bike for warp speed below 4th gear.

This is the first report I have seen where somebody took anything other than a GS or RT to Hilltop. Good stuff.

wheeledwidewebb said:

This is the first report I have seen where somebody took anything other than a GS or RT to Hilltop. Good stuff.

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He did a fantastic job on re-mapping my ZZR1400 - but had to remove the restrictive secondary butterflies, again some tuners out there can re-program these in the ECU rather than remove them.

I think the GS is one of his speciality bikes he knows better than most (all) the other folk out there.

CJS racing in Bristol are similarly well known for Ducati's, but do lots of other bikes as well.

ECU-U are a bit different as it is a generic "one size fits all" flash, but is a quick and easy fox for the S10's main issue (of restrictions in 1st - 3rd) and still greatly improves fuelling - but not as well as a bespoke remap.

Pays yer money and all that.

I suspect if you got a flash to sort out the butterfly timings Hilltop make be able to then alter the fuelling to get it spot on without undoing the work of the Flash?

A company called Flash Tune now sell a DIY flashing kit (software and harness) and supply it with some unrestricted maps, but the software allows you to alter every parameter including ignition timing, fly by wire throttle mapping, rev limits, fan temperature off/on, overrun (engine braking) and you can do a different map for each gear in each mode - I suspect if you bought one of these and took it to your local dyno tuner he could get the fuelling spot on as well.

wheeledwidewebb said:

This is the first report I have seen where somebody took anything other than a GS or RT to Hilltop. Good stuff.

Click to expand...

He did a fantastic job on re-mapping my ZZR1400 - but had to remove the restrictive secondary butterflies, again some tuners out there can re-program these in the ECU rather than remove them.

I think the GS is one of his speciality bikes he knows better than most (all) the other folk out there.

CJS racing in Bristol are similarly well known for Ducati's, but do lots of other bikes as well.

ECU-U are a bit different as it is a generic "one size fits all" flash, but is a quick and easy fox for the S10's main issue (of restrictions in 1st - 3rd) and still greatly improves fuelling - but not as well as a bespoke remap.

Pays yer money and all that.

I suspect if you got a flash to sort out the butterfly timings Hilltop make be able to then alter the fuelling to get it spot on without undoing the work of the Flash?

A company called Flash Tune now sell a DIY flashing kit (software and harness) and supply it with some unrestricted maps, but the software allows you to alter every parameter including ignition timing, fly by wire throttle mapping, rev limits, fan temperature off/on, overrun (engine braking) and you can do a different map for each gear in each mode - I suspect if you bought one of these and took it to your local dyno tuner he could get the fuelling spot on as well.

I think I'm going to go to Hilltop as well on the grounds that a bespoke map has to be better than a one-size-fits-all and I understand removing the low gear restrictions makes it a bit 'lively'; SWMBO is almost always on the back so I try to maintain smooth rather than lively. Shame really as Essex is a lot nearer to me than Leicester.

Kevin

The removal of restrictions is what you really want for two-up as it makes the pull more linear.

I found mine was a bit two-stroke like in stock form, it took a load more revs and clutch slipping to get it to move, and then when short-shifting into second it would fall back into the flat spot, hesitate for a while and then suddenly take off, it also needed to be dropped down an extra gear (sometimes two) to overtake slow cars.

With the consistent pull from the de-restricted engine it is much easier to ride smoothly at low speeds - and if you have the throttle control of Stephen Hawking you can always pop it back into T-Mode which seems to simulate the power delivery of a CG125 with a clogged air filter.

What's putting me off the flash is comments like "Throttle IS very sensitive" and "S mode is twitchy to start with" on the other forum. What I really want of course is a tune set up for our bike that also removes the restrictions.

Kevin