Using the kickstart.

Le singe

Guest
I'm about to start building a competition bike based around an R65 chassis fitted with a modified R100 engine,(twin-plugged,cammed,ported,etc).
The 650 gearbox has a kickstart lever fitted,are these suitable for starting the bike or just fitted for spectator amusement?
 
Thanks for the reply Rob, I guess I'll have to use the electric start and hope it doesn't kick back and damage my thumb:D
 
Sounds like an interesting project, you should photograph it as you go along and post it on the board.

Have you got the twin plugging sorted yet? I've just picked up the parts to do mine (PVL coils etc) and booked the head machining, Just wondered if theres any problems that come to light.
 
The project's ground to a halt because,after driving 2 hours to collect the R65, it was found that the frame was bent!
A straight-edge on one side of the rear wheel contacted front and rear of one side of the front tyre,but left a 35mm gap between the same points on the other side!
Viewed from the front,the front and rear wheels,in the vertical plane,formed a lovely 'X'.
The twin-plugging is really straight forward,just a couple of things to watch for, make sure all the plugs,ie top and bottom,are of the same heat range,and alter your ignition timing accordingly.
As the burn is more efficient,it will be effectively starting too early so retard the timing a shade,probably 3-4 degrees.
Otherwise the piston will lose energy having to work against too much burn,(gas expansion), as it reaches TDC.
Hope I've explained that clearly!
 
Very clear thanks.

If you don't need a log book Motorworks sell R65 frames for £85 but if you do they are £235...plus shipping though so it could work out expensive.
 
Whatton said:
Rob, have you seen this web site?

Duel Plugging a GS
Click to expand...

there's a quick fix for the advance retard unit when twin plugging ( Rob, i'll see you at beaulie and explain), what size/bore are you having the second plug machined to - the same as the original plug, or the smaller spark plug, (same plug as honda 90) -
 
Thanks for the Link Kev.

I haven't a clue Neil, I'm just dropping the heads round to Mick Barr tomorrow and picking them up on Tuesday, so I'll be leaving it up to Mick. Does it matter?

Micks told me to put a timing mark on the next tooth on the flywheel and set the timing to this, apparently it's a 2° difference, doesn't seem much though and I would have expected more like the 3°- 4° Le Singe mentioned. Mick also said that the main needle may need to be dropped by one notch because the engine would probably need less fuel apart from the PVL coils (again from Mick at £30 each) I got a piece of A4 with a hand drawn diagram for the bracket. Am I missing something or do the Yanks make everything seem far more complicated than it is?

Sorry for the hijack Le Singe.
 
I did the conversion on my brother's R100RS a few years ago,it was extremely straightforward.I used the PVL coils as well. I too read the American link,I didn't realise how complicated it could be made! A cynic might note that every over-complication ended with the punter buying yet another part!
The ignition setting will be subject to a bit of trial and error,engines of this age can be quite different from each other,start at 2° then try a degree or so more.
I could tell you a tale about my brother having a major problem starting the bike one morning after the conversion was completed, which resulted in him returning the coils to the dealer with the allegation that they were faulty.
The second pair arrived and the problem was still the same.The dealer refused to change the coils again as he had checked them before sending.
I rode up to my brothers to help him sort it out. I tested everything electrical and couldn't find a problem.
Pulled off a fuel pipe and found the tank was empty.....!
I won't tell you the tale as it will embarrass him :p
 
To come back to you original question...

I have been using the kickstart on my R80G/S the past weeks and it really is usable! 9 time out of 10 I get it running with a few kicks. I'm not sure it will work well in the winter and I don't know what the difference would be on your R100 engine of course.

It doesn't kick back at all, and I'm NOT a big guy :)

Cheers,
Michel
 
mod advance retard unit

Andrew Sexton mods the advance retard unit for £30. It is no good altering the timing, not the best result !! I expect Steptoe does a advance retard mod' (he should know:D )
 
I'll pick your brain at beaulie Neil. I wasn't too impressed with the idea of just retarding the ignition a few degrees.

Mick fits the smaller Honda plugs but he did say if I wanted he could fit standard size plugs but they would need a spacer making because the threads would be too long and protrude into the combustion chamber without one.
 
My brother's bike was set-up on the dyno,there was negligable difference at the top-end between retarding the standard unit or retarding the standard unit and limiting the full advance.
It is simple enough to modify the advance unit,but if you're going to get that keen,get it on a dyno and check everything properly.
A race engine can see good results with very accurate ignition mapping,but this is a 1 litre, 70bhp unit.
 
No intention of getting too keen (far too tight) but just want it to run as well as possible. I will try retarding the ignition first.
 
Rob Farmer said:
Sorry for the hijack Le Singe.
Click to expand...

But isn't there a link between kickstarts and ignition timing?

Don't kickstart models have their ignition retarded for ease of starting?
So those retro fitting kickstarts can have trouble.

I never had any problems using the kickstart on my G/Ss.
 
Just been and bought a 1983 R100RT as a basis for the project.
It's also fitted with a kickstart gearbox,which the owner said was an optional extra.
Arrived home,cold engine,(collected it on a trailer as the fairing had been removed and needed transporting), full choke, kick,kick,mutter,mutter, pressed the button and off it goes!
There may be a knack,but for me the electric start stays.
So now it's full strip-down,fit the modded engine,etc,then try and sort the handling.
At last a new project:)
 
Re: mod advance retard unit

MATKAT said:
Andrew Sexton mods the advance retard unit for £30. It is no good altering the timing, not the best result !! I expect Steptoe does a advance retard mod' (he should know:D )
Click to expand...

£30 !!!!!!!! takes 5 minutes, your only knocking the tab down out of the way in the ignition bean can - :rolleyes:


Rob Farmer said:
Mick fits the smaller Honda plugs but he did say if I wanted he could fit standard size plugs but they would need a spacer making because the threads would be too long and protrude into the combustion chamber without one.
Click to expand...

You can fit full size plugs, with a short reach - Judge has these on his GS -
 
£30 !!!!!!!! takes 5 minutes, your only knocking the tab down out of the way in the ignition bean can -
Click to expand...

What tab? is the intention to limit the advance? I'd have thought that if the ignition was retarded by 2° or 3° then this would need to be across the whole ignition curve not just the fully advanced part...or am i missing something?

I see Boyer make an electronic ignition for twin plugged engines, I suspect that it's for the earlier engines, If I bin the complete ignition system on mine would the earlier setup fit in place of my bean can?


You can fit full size plugs, with a short reach - Judge has these on his GS
Click to expand...

Are they both the same heat range? if they are what plugs is he using?
 
The timing on my brother's engine was just retarded by a few degrees,4 years later he's had no problems.
He's also using the same plugs as standard,again with no problems. The engine will theoretically run a bit hotter,(better burn,more heat,more power/efficiency), the standard plugs should just run a bit cleaner,but a check after the engine has bedded in is a good idea.
 
Nippy Normans supply Touratech, Wunderlich, Desert Fox and many other makes of accessories.
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