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Thread: Trail Riders Fellowship 2009

  1. #1
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    Trail Riders Fellowship 2009

    If you are already a member of the TRF then

    If not, then consider joining - only £40 per year.
    You will receive 12 issues of the TRF's TRAIL Magazine containing useful information, letters, articles, ride reports, equipment tests, competitions, features and stories, classified sales, and useful contacts.

    You will have free access to the Members area of the TRF Website, with useful information and downloadable files.

    You never know, one day you may decide to take the GS down some trail or other and the existence of the TRF may have kept one or two open

    http://www.trf.org.uk/
    Last edited by Clive; 21-02-09 at 20:32. Reason: Title change to 2009

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    I couldn't agree more Clive. I enjoyed another 60mile cracking ride around Boxhill, Newlands Corner, West Horsley, Shere, Framley Green on Saturday morning fuelled by tea and bacon sandwiches. A top bunch of like minded blokes. We were so wet and muddy we laughed like school boys at the tsunamis rising as we crashed through puddles. As much fun as you can have with your clothes on.

    Jeremy
    Surrey TRF Member

  3. #3
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    for one of the experts please, does it also include riding in Scotland, how easy is it to work out where you are allowed to travel etc.........I'd love to join but I want to know I can somewhere without having the dogs set on me......
    <a href=http://www.nomadbiker.co.uk target=_blank>www.nomadbiker.co.uk</a>

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    Quote Originally Posted by garfield View Post
    for one of the experts please, does it also include riding in Scotland, how easy is it to work out where you are allowed to travel etc.........I'd love to join but I want to know I can somewhere without having the dogs set on me......
    From the TRF FAQ

    Q : Why are there no TRF groups in Scotland, Northen Ireland or Eire?
    A : Unfortunately Scotland has a different legal system which we have little knowledge of and therefore can not offer advice on. The same applies to Northen Ireland and Eire.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by garfield View Post
    for one of the experts please, does it also include riding in Scotland, how easy is it to work out where you are allowed to travel etc.........I'd love to join but I want to know I can somewhere without having the dogs set on me......
    There are very few 'green lanes' that are legal to ride in Scotland,
    and to the best of my knowledge, because of that, there is no TRF group there.....probably something to do with the Romans not bothering to go up there
    Generally you'll need to get permission from the landowner or as you say, risk the dogs.

    I very nearly moved to Scotland myself a few years ago, the lack of legal places to ride, despite all that space was one of the deciding factors
    KEA

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timolgra View Post
    There are very few 'green lanes' that are legal to ride in Scotland,
    and to the best of my knowledge, because of that, there is no TRF group there.....probably something to do with the Romans not bothering to go up there
    Generally you'll need to get permission from the landowner or as you say, risk the dogs.

    I very nearly moved to Scotland myself a few years ago, the lack of legal places to ride, despite all that space was one of the deciding factors

    Northumberland is just down the road I suppose so I still have options....
    <a href=http://www.nomadbiker.co.uk target=_blank>www.nomadbiker.co.uk</a>

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    I joined up at their stand at the dirt bike show at the weekend. They are the only organisation which represents us and they can't do it without funds.

  8. #8

    TRAIL RIDING IN SCOTLAND????

    The following is from an article I found around seven years ago when trying to research trail riding in Scotland, if I'd found it straight away it could have saved me a lot of time.



    Talking Trails -- On a road to nowhere?
    Scotland is beautiful. Fewer people, less traffic, more hills, more space and clear air.
    The perfect place to go trail riding?
    Captivated by this ethos, having witnessed it first hand when riding trials and in particular when competing in the SSDT, the time seemed right (being somewhat older now) to ride for fun instead of competition.
    Competition is fine.
    My ego still nags me to compete occasionally, with my skill and body telling me otherwise. Listening to reason, the wild and peaceful spaces beckoned.
    Simple then. Just get out the map and off we go. Wrong. There are no Rights of Way marked on OS maps in Scotland.
    In order to understand what makes Scotland different to the rest of UK, it helps to have a history lesson. Oh no! Aren't they for confused pubescents and 12 bhp hopefuls? Short on history, the full tank, full licence and XR400 had to wait. So began 6 months of detective work.
    Contacting LARA and the TRF was top of the list. Great, join up, get the info and head for the hills. "Sorry, we're not too sure about the legalities of trail riding in Scotland. Can you help us?" Eh?! Gloom. Whilst both these organisations do excellent work and know the difference between a BOAT and a RUPP, Rights of Way (ROWS) in Scotland are different story.
    LARA , BBT and TRF publications make wise reading, providing a solid foundation for the would be trail rider. Scottish law and history elevates the learning process and hopefully leads to a level of understanding.
    Ah! to hell with it, I'm off riding. One shotgun cartridge over my head later and latterly an irate caber tossing sized gamekeeper convinced me
    otherwise.
    The Scottish Rights of Way Society provided the next key. The rest of this seemingly labyrinth-like trail now started to fill with organisations,
    bureaucrats, do-gooders, motorcycle haters, NIMBY'S (not in my back yard), estate managers, deer management groups, local authorities,
    ramblers, mountaineers, Lords, Ladies and absentee (often English) landowners at every turn.

    Talking Trails -- On a road to nowhere? : Trail Riding in Scotland Page 2 of 6
    In fact we need to look at an Irish General to realise
    where todays Scottish road system, hill tracks and
    ROWS came from and why there is a resistance to
    offroading in these areas.
    Unlike England, Scotland was not well served with
    communications. Drove tracks for cattle maybe, but
    old Roman roads as in England, I'm afraid not. They
    ended mostly in the Borders and Central Scotland. In particular the Highlands were
    remote from government control and interference. The building of a network of
    military roads by Major-General George Wade changed that. Wade was sent to
    Scotland in July 1724, 'narrowly to inspect the present situation of the Highlanders...to
    make strict enquiry into the last law for disarming the Highlanders...to suggest to [his]
    Majesty such other remedies as may conduce to the good settlement of that part of the
    Kingdom'.
    With that backdrop in mind the history lesson ends, save to say the military roads that
    were subsequently built and added to by Major Caulfield let the English in and the
    Scots out. The rest is history from the '45 to the current pathos of patriotic
    undercurrents and political meandering, yet what exists are roads connecting us all.
    And what beauts! A legacy steeped in history. Most tarmacced and in general daily
    use, the rest losing their distinct character from erosion, use - and lack of use.
    Want a hot potato to go riding on? Try the Corrieyairick Pass. Wade's prize road. A
    2,500' pass with 17 or so traverses. 12 miles of rough bliss with a dead end
    switchback of black road before the real thing starts. It's the equivalent of The
    Ridgeway in England and under siege by more interested parties than you can shake
    an empty fuel can at. There are storms over this pass. Physical and political ones.
    Treat with kid gloves for now.
    Is it a Vehicular Right of Way?
    "Maybe, it depends on the rules."
    Here they are. The creation of a Right of Way in
    Scotland depends primarily, not on statute law, but on
    the common law. There are certain essential
    requirements. Here they are. The creation of a Right of
    Way in Scotland depends primarily, not on statute law,
    but on the common law. There are certain essential
    requirements. These are:
    1.It must run from one public place to another. (see
    note i).
    2.It must follow a more or less defined route (see note
    ii).
    3.It must have been used openly and peaceably by
    members of the public as of right, without the
    permission, express or implied, of the landowner (see
    note iii).
    4.It must have been used without substantial and effective interruption for a period of
    20 years or more (see note iv).
    Notes.
    (i) A "public place" is one where the public are entitled to be e.g. a public road,
    village, church, burial ground.
    (ii) The route may make minor deviations and in open country it need not be visible on
    Talking tThera gilrso -u-n Od,n b au tr oita sdh toou nldo wfohlleorwe? a: mTroariel Rori dliensgs cino nSsciosttelannt dand generally defined lineP. age 3 of 6
    (iii) The use must be regular with regard to the density of the surrounding population,
    without any stealth or violence on the part of the user and in such a way as is it clearly
    indicates to the landowner that it is being used despite or against the landowner's
    wishes.
    (iv) 20 years is the legally set "prescriptive period". It is not necessary for the same
    people to have used the route throughout the period but it is necessary for members of
    the public to have used the route for this period.
    "You're not going to like this bit. I also learned of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984. I
    could tell you things like - when is a road a path and not a road but a Right of Way
    anyhow even if it is a path and called a road, but I'd only get you bogged in minutiae
    such as it's an offence up to level 3 on the standard scale (current 1,000 UKP) to drive
    a motor vehicle on a road without lawful excuse." Although this is disconcerting I'm
    not aware that this has ever been used or is generally known.
    There is also a
    misconception there
    is no law of trespass
    in Scotland. There
    is, it's just that it is
    not always
    realistically or easily
    enforceable and
    there is generally a
    welcome tolerance
    of access to many
    areas of land,
    particularly to
    moorland and
    mountain areas.
    Therein lies the key
    (or not) to accepted
    trail riding in
    Scotland. Because
    there are so few trail
    riders in Scotland
    and vehicular rights of way (as opposed to e.g. pedestrian) have not been asserted or
    validated there are in principal none or at least very few that are recorded. To
    understand why, it helps to look at the stated objects and sentiment behind The
    Scottish Rights of Way Society which I may add is worthwhile joining.
    The objects are:
    1. The preservation, defence and acquisition of public rights of way in Scotland.
    2. The preservation and restoration of such rights of way as may be in danger of being
    lost.
    Whilst in principal this is all good news for trail riders, the reality is somewhat
    different. The society has been in existence since 1845, long before motor vehicles and
    therefore caters for walkers in the main, purely by virtue of history and numbers.
    The principal documented use of land by motorcycles is probably the Scottish Six
    Days Trial which over the years has catered for 2 and 3 wheeled vehicles. The first
    trial was in 1909. The trial has and continues to use rights of way, however this is
    done by agreement with landowners, which is in fact how many rights of way come
    into being.
    Talking Trails -- On a road to nowhere? : Trail Riding in Scotland Page 4 of 6
    In many ways it is preferable to do things this way. This ensures all parties concerned
    with land use are considered and catered for. Remember much of Scotland relies on
    game shooting, hill farming and tourism for its income. So what then of the trail riders
    lot?
    The hard truth is no one is actively looking after your interests. An example is a
    current working party called "The Access Forum". The title of this forum is:
    Scotland's Hills and Mountains: a Concordat on Access. Surely this is an ideal
    platform for representation by existing pro trail riding groups? Similar less than
    satisfactory situations exist with Scottish Natural Heritage ( the replacement for the
    Countryside Commission for Scotland) and The Scottish Office. To my
    disappointment none of these bodies are pro trail riding or wheeled green tourism,
    save for mountain bikes.
    What then does today's Scottish trail rider do? Other than straight forward agreements
    with landowners, most probably simply go and ride, quietly, out of the way and if
    meeting hostile and unknowledgeable persons on the trail then they simply go
    somewhere else.
    In my own
    experience it
    does little
    good to
    attempt to
    explain that
    you are
    asserting
    your right of
    way or
    attempting
    for example
    to upgrade a
    current
    pedestrian
    right of way
    to cart and
    carriage access (which conveys a vehicular right) over the prescribed 20 year period -
    as by definition you are a motorcyclist and probably unwelcome.
    Say you use a route consistently and attempt to assert it as a right, what usually
    happens is that gates suddenly become locked, signs are erected (which in themselves
    are best ignored and probably not worth the wood they are written on), complaints are
    made and what was an open and peaceable ride is no longer. Interdicts by landowners
    can be taken out against an individual to prevent them going to a particular place
    again, yet this rarely if ever happens due to cost. Likewise few people, once a claimed
    right of way is considered in contention, attempt by law to vindicate it. This requires a
    declarator to be issued by the court and is reliant on proof of use. It all comes down to
    cost. Managed use and use by agreement is cheaper and arguably preferable.
    In writing and
    researching this article I'd
    hoped to learn and tell
    how there were many
    undisputed or vindicated
    trails. Sadly I cannot
    conclude this, nor in the
    Talking Trails -- On a road to nowhere? : Trail Riding in Scotland space of a magazine Page 5 of 6
    article go into all the
    caveats and nuances of
    law which can at best be
    stated as nebulous and
    untried. I'd also hoped to
    tell of all the positive
    action and considerations
    that were in place and
    planned for us.
    Dismayed, tired and
    confused from the hopes
    and disappointments of
    my research I am in no
    way surprised that
    nothing concrete exists to
    say it's 100% legal to ride
    here and 100% illegal
    there.
    Which then of the 12,000 miles of recorded Rights of Way would you like to ride?
    Asserted, Vindicated or Claimed?
    "Who cares, as long as we stay out of trouble and don't knowingly do anything illegal,
    I'll follow you............" This indeed in the absence of accessible maps, access to the
    SROW society ROW database, and knowledge may well be your sentiment and the
    only action you are left with - until something better comes along.
    In summary maybe you'd just like to join me and other like minded (responsible?)
    individuals on some known trails - maybe stopping at a mountain bothy on the way?
    What are they?
    "Simple unlocked shelters for the benefit of all those who love the wild and lonely
    places". I guess that says it all.
    Of course you have to know where they are in the first place!
    Last edited by Clive; 11-12-07 at 13:03. Reason: Tidy up
    KEA

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    Tim - Iv'e just read your note twice and am none the wiser Is it saying there are 12000 miles of trails under dispute or 12000 miles of trails that are no more??

    Its such as shame as there are literally undreds of thousands of acres up here that nobody ever even walks on.....

    AndyT
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  10. #10
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    Going to re-join. Just printed off the forms. Me and my business partner have decided that the membership fee will be our xmas bonus. (we are only a small business!!!) At least it will last all year.

  11. #11
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    I was chatting to the SACU Enduro secretary the other day and he was saying how him and another guy had a Scottish section of the TRF for two years, several years ago. They tried to find some legal routes but came up largely a blank, other than the Corrieairyack pass (which is much disputed) and a route in East Lothian. There a few short sections of unsurfaced road around (the longest is in the borders near to St. Mary's loch) but there is very little information on where they are and most of them are very short in any case.

    The next challenge is to convince a certain tree growing, land owning govt agency to develop some trail riding on their land....

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyT View Post
    Tim - Iv'e just read your note twice and am none the wiser Is it saying there are 12000 miles of trails under dispute or 12000 miles of trails that are no more??

    Its such as shame as there are literally undreds of thousands of acres up here that nobody ever even walks on.....

    AndyT
    Here's alink to the article
    http://www.scottishenduros.co.uk/99/Rushworthrow.PDF
    KEA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timolgra View Post
    Ah, thanks for that - saved me a job of trying to tidy the previous, oddly formatted text

  14. #14
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    trf dont make me laugh

    oh the trf are great my ass ask the lads down the north east and yorkshire weve lost loads of good legal(was)trails around the above areas and yes i was a member of the trf,we all knew what was going on with the downgrading of trails,rupps,boats etc,etc and when the shit hit the fan by all the dogooders and goverment the trf didnt want to know.just passed the buck as for riding in scotland you do need permission of the landowner but they will never give it as this will then let everyone come up to scotland to ride and they dont want that i know as i live up here and spoke to a lot of farmers,game wardens,forestry etc as for corriacher pass that will be a no no very shortly.just my 2 pennys worth sorry if it offends certain people but they say the truth hurts

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by cutmorej View Post
    oh the trf are great my ass ask the lads down the north east and yorkshire weve lost loads of good legal(was)trails around the above areas and yes i was a member of the trf,


    .just my 2 pennys worth sorry if it offends certain people but they say the truth hurts
    Oh well, blame the TRF the despite all they good they do
    KEA

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    Quote Originally Posted by cutmorej View Post
    oh the trf are great my ass ask the lads down the north east and yorkshire weve lost loads of good legal(was)trails around the above areas and yes i was a member of the trf,we all knew what was going on with the downgrading of trails,rupps,boats etc,etc and when the shit hit the fan by all the dogooders and goverment the trf didnt want to know.just passed the buck as for riding in scotland you do need permission of the landowner but they will never give it as this will then let everyone come up to scotland to ride and they dont want that i know as i live up here and spoke to a lot of farmers,game wardens,forestry etc as for corriacher pass that will be a no no very shortly.just my 2 pennys worth sorry if it offends certain people but they say the truth hurts
    whare exactly is the Corriach pass?? Iv'e heard it mentioned but no idea where it is?? I've been on Wades road near Corgarf Castle and not been chased off.

    AndyT
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