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Thread: Riding Skills - Please read

  1. #49
    I hate to agree with rasher about the Californian fecking super bike school ( !!!), I do push my feet into my pegs, but it's to act as a platform, something to push against in order to push me forward, and ultimately to put pressure into the bars. For me, It's a bit like flicking a pulse through a long bit of rope or hose pipe that's laid out on the ground. My push into the bars, starts from the opposite foot and sends a pulse up and across my shoulders and down into my opposite hand.

    Having said that, The GS is such a flickable bike anyway, I don't think about it that much, some of the sports bikes I've had though, did need a bit more input (mental and physical) to turn them quickly.

    I just know that some pepes will read all this and say what a load of complete bollox!!! And they're not wrong either!!!

    It's what ever works for you. That's the important bit, If you think or do something that gives you confidence and gives you some sort of mental reasurance, then do it! Even if it means crouching down by yer foot peg, and then pulling yer leathers out the crack of your arse as you leave the pits.

  2. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigyin View Post
    Oh, i checked all the above list and i must be doing something right...........still shit though

    And i havent even been to CSS



    When i tried fast changes of direction by weighting footpegs as i used to do on the 636, the GS1150 tied itself in knots which i put down to the hugely softer suspension from the track based stuff on the sports bike
    This is an old chestnut about what does what but basically you will help a bike with the footpegs if you are already countersteering but you will not ultimately steer a bike with footpegs/knees/shopping etc without countersteering. Try steering the bike (in a nice safe spot like a big empty carpark) off a straight line with either countersteering or footpegs. With footpegs the bike will change direction but not "steer" very accurately. With just the bars you can make it do anything steering wise you want. Even try with feet off slightly.

    The trouble is the racing theory that people read is a big leap from road riding and even though it is relevant for this peg or that peg, it is a help rather than an outright method. The Keith Code stuff will give you some great ideas but I have always used it as a help to other stuff.

    The main thing is that you are happy with how you change direction at a range of speeds on the road, just in case you really have to in normal riding or an emergency. Whatever bike you have will "feel" different and it is that confidence "you" have that makes the difference.

    Countersteering, braking, cornering etc are fundamentals of riding a bike and if you get to grips with the "feel" and have your own method it won't matter whether you ride a Harley or a 50cc scooter, you will be able to adapt.

    When I was an instructor I used to blag a go on any bike I could and it is great experience for seperating what you do on all bikes from characteristics of the bike. I took out big Harleys and Dukes for a pose and 50's to see what shit they got on the road! All great fun and fundamentally the same

  3. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrigsby1 View Post

    Countersteering, braking, cornering etc are fundamentals of riding a bike and if you get to grips with the "feel" and have your own method it won't matter whether you ride a Harley or a 50cc scooter, you will be able to adapt.

    When I was an instructor I used to blag a go on any bike I could and it is great experience for seperating what you do on all bikes from characteristics of the bike. I took out big Harleys and Dukes for a pose and 50's to see what shit they got on the road! All great fun and fundamentally the same
    I used to have a harley sportster custom which was my first bike back after a 29 year break. I had real trouble cornering on this until I read about countersteering. When i learned to ride in the 70''s can't remember ever hearing about it. Boy did it make a difference. I think that the long trail of a custom fork geometry amplifies the countersteering effect. Still I hope I might be cornering a bit faster on my 848 evo !

    wrigsby I met a guy at devils bridge who spoke of a friend up your way with a 20 bike collection but who always chose to ride his Gs first - are you he by any chance ?


  4. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by giles lamb View Post
    I hate to agree with rasher about the Californian fecking super bike school ( !!!), I do push my feet into my pegs, but it's to act as a platform, something to push against in order to push me forward, and ultimately to put pressure into the bars. For me, It's a bit like flicking a pulse through a long bit of rope or hose pipe that's laid out on the ground. My push into the bars, starts from the opposite foot and sends a pulse up and across my shoulders and down into my opposite hand.

    Having said that, The GS is such a flickable bike anyway, I don't think about it that much, some of the sports bikes I've had though, did need a bit more input (mental and physical) to turn them quickly.

    I just know that some pepes will read all this and say what a load of complete bollox!!! And they're not wrong either!!!

    I

    Giles, on the contrary this is a very helpful description of what you feel when riding. Not sure i agree that whatever works for you is ok - at the extreme of lean and control good style like yours is worth having and probably safer than than the guy with rigid arms and head in the wrong place. no need to be too modest - It's obvious you know what you're talking about

  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by giles lamb View Post
    Davnjud - found another good video for you!!

    Only gets really interesting after about 4 mins! Look for the black lines this nutter is leaving on the tarmac and his push it underneath him riding style. Works for him!!!!!!

    thanks Giles.
    no doubt about it those guys can ride. I imagine in your day job you might be tempted to ' have a little word in your shell like valentino...' T shirts clearly the right clothing for such adventures !

  6. #54
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    Pegs Down - Check

    Knee Down - Check

    Engine Cases Down - Check

    Elbow Down - Check


    I suppose on the road this may get you a ticket ?


  7. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by davnjud View Post
    I used to have a harley sportster custom which was my first bike back after a 29 year break. I had real trouble cornering on this until I read about countersteering. When i learned to ride in the 70''s can't remember ever hearing about it. Boy did it make a difference. I think that the long trail of a custom fork geometry amplifies the countersteering effect. Still I hope I might be cornering a bit faster on my 848 evo !

    wrigsby I met a guy at devils bridge who spoke of a friend up your way with a 20 bike collection but who always chose to ride his Gs first - are you he by any chance ?

    Ha, ha, ha Not me... I'm a bit of a 1 bike collector There are plenty of folk up here with serious shed collections as in agricultural sheds... Tractors, cars, bikes, boats... The Classic Show up here is held every 2nd year and is always amazingly popular and there are plenty of folk with big winter "projects".... How many winters they take is another matter

    I used to have my GS and a trials bike, and recently sold a K11LT, but I like to use 'em and the GS usually gets favour! There are quite a few bikers here with some great bikes though. It's also a good place to fix things as there is always someone who knows. Never enough buyers though so if you want to flog bikes locally you have to put out the word and wait.... Never my strong point

    PS I used to instruct and thought that teaching countersteering was vital to the safety of students. It is sometimes hard to get the principle across as, like you say, the "feel" is so different across a range of bikes and lighter bikes or bigger bars are usually "lighter" to steer.

    It was not part of the DSA guidelines at the time and I am not sure whether they have woken up yet or are still trusting to the "luck" principle Perhaps why so many roads in places such a Derbyshire have those lurid accident stat signs on the popular bendy roads.....................................

  8. #56
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    Well I'm rather afraid that I'm a rather old fashioned fart

    I don't lean in, I don't get my knee down, I don't push or pull, I don't even weight my pegs, I don't press down on my pegs. I don't drop my shoulder, I don't transfer weight anywhere ... I just sit there and ride the feckin' thing

    Photographs of me on track days showed me rather surprisingly, to me, leaning out and presumably pushing the 'bike down ... but I didn't know I was doing that until I saw the piccies.

    Riding like this stood me well for three consecutive High Performance Courses at der Nürburgring. First a 3rd in group, then two 2nds in group ... the groups consisting of ten to twelve riders on Blades, R1's, 916's etc. The oldest man and on a BMW

    I guess I was good in my time, but as the T shirt my mate bought me says...

    "The Older I get The Faster I was!"

    Ride safe ...
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  9. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrigsby1 View Post
    This is an old chestnut about what does what but basically you will help a bike with the footpegs if you are already countersteering but you will not ultimately steer a bike with footpegs/knees/shopping etc without countersteering. Try steering the bike (in a nice safe spot like a big empty carpark) off a straight line with either countersteering or footpegs. With footpegs the bike will change direction but not "steer" very accurately. With just the bars you can make it do anything steering wise you want. Even try with feet off slightly.

    The trouble is the racing theory that people read is a big leap from road riding and even though it is relevant for this peg or that peg, it is a help rather than an outright method. The Keith Code stuff will give you some great ideas but I have always used it as a help to other stuff.

    The main thing is that you are happy with how you change direction at a range of speeds on the road, just in case you really have to in normal riding or an emergency. Whatever bike you have will "feel" different and it is that confidence "you" have that makes the difference.

    Countersteering, braking, cornering etc are fundamentals of riding a bike and if you get to grips with the "feel" and have your own method it won't matter whether you ride a Harley or a 50cc scooter, you will be able to adapt.

    When I was an instructor I used to blag a go on any bike I could and it is great experience for seperating what you do on all bikes from characteristics of the bike. I took out big Harleys and Dukes for a pose and 50's to see what shit they got on the road! All great fun and fundamentally the same
    Just to clarify, i do already use countersteering quite a bit on the road and i dont do trackdays so knee downs are rare

    When i mentioned the pegs weighting i used to find on the sports bike that (what felt to me like) pushing down on the outside peg would lift the bike from the line it was on and then releasing the pressure would drop it back in again.

    Thats what it "felt" like i was doing when perhaps i was just shifting the base weight around ................i dont know as i am not of the riding ability of others to constantly analyse everything but try to understand some of it. I do know that riding the GS the same was a no no and have, as you put it, adapted my riding to suit between different styles of bikes.

    One person i learned lots from was AdamA who was the first person i ever rode with (after years of riding round on my own thinking everything was all good) who took me to one side not long after we first met and started to try to get me thinking about my riding and pointing out what i could do different to improve (apparently sometimes i overthink my riding but on the days i dont its obvious when it all clicks )

    I hope some of it sank in but i know i still need to improve corner speed and fine tune positioning at times although thats an aspect of my riding that has improved a lot.......... on other sites i generally have stayed away from these types of subforums as they degenerate into 16 page arguments over a miniscule aspect of riding when 2 contrary viewpoints arise but on here its doesnt seem the case so i'll read on

    As a final aside, anyone like to analyse my mate Danny's riding style..........I know it shouldnt work but he used to do well club racing, on an aged 400 on treaded tyres getting podiums




  10. #58
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    Well it don't matter how fast your going with a style like that

    And falling off should be pretty painless from that low down.

  11. #59
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    I think that may be safely called "hanging off" I think he shows a very youthful flexibility that I haven't got an f'ing chance of copying

    To Mickey, I have never had my knee down, had lots of fun riding fast on roads for many years and follow your saying "just ride the f'ing thing"

    It's just some of us have had to be able to describe it to somone else for training or similar and especially when you are training inexperienced riders, you have to be able to break it down into safe and bitesized chunks.

    A couple of the most f'ing stupid thing i have heard said is "look at the exit of the bend and the bike will go there" and a CSM Rider Training manual from the early 90's said "push down on the bar" or "push left knee into tank to go right" and visa versa.

    Sometimes when you are training you have to be able to stop or save people from the shit and sadly if someone has frozen up mid bend neither of the above will do a f'ing thing. That is why things like countersteering are so vital to active trainers as they hopefully stop this in the 1st place and at least give you something useful to say if it does.

    I tend to think a bit like my courier days which is "loosen up and go quicker"

    In London as a courier when I saw a bike accident I thought "go quicker" or basically "don't bottle it". When you were in and out of traffic for most of the day, self belief was very important!!

  12. #60
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    I do notice quite a few riders tryng to hang off on the road, normally they are holding me up in my diesel tin box!

    I think quite a few riders watch moto-gp on telly and think that is how to ride, quite sad really as although they think they look cool, I think they probably do not have a clue how to control a motorcyle and normally they are on something pretty damn fast.

    I would also agree that hanging off on the road is pretty pointless for much (if not all) of the time, adjusting body position is fine, but proper hanging off I am sure adds nothing except possibly a bit of fun.

  13. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasher View Post
    I do notice quite a few riders tryng to hang off on the road, normally they are holding me up in my diesel tin box!

    I think quite a few riders watch moto-gp on telly and think that is how to ride, quite sad really as although they think they look cool, I think they probably do not have a clue how to control a motorcyle and normally they are on something pretty damn fast.

    I would also agree that hanging off on the road is pretty pointless for much (if not all) of the time, adjusting body position is fine, but proper hanging off I am sure adds nothing except possibly a bit of fun.
    With you on that one.... I used to move around on sports bikes but like you said most of the folk trying it or the magazine shoots with "knee down" pose seem to have forgotten to lean the bike!!

    In one of those Performance Bikle Frenzy questionairres from the early 90's was a Q "Have you ever got your knee down?" and this CX riding courier had answered "No, but I have passed plenty of riders who have..."

    I hardly ever go to bike shops any more so I don't know whether there is still an obsession with knee sliders and angle grinders

    After working in and around bike shops for many years I was worn out with the amount of bike shop ego bullshit I heard and many of the "heros" who might have done a bit of what they said came a cropper sooner or later...

    Photo's for proof of knee down with a lack of lean.... Least the cost of hero blobs won't be much
    Attached Images Attached Images      

  14. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Micky View Post
    Well I'm rather afraid that I'm a rather old fashioned fart

    I don't lean in, I don't get my knee down, I don't push or pull, I don't even weight my pegs, I don't press down on my pegs. I don't drop my shoulder, I don't transfer weight anywhere ... I just sit there and ride the feckin' thing



    Nothing wrong with that at all!!!! Of the bods that I ride with, there is one who I suspect is you to a T!! 32 years in the job, ex instructor, current IAM examiner (has been for about 20 years) and sits completely still on his bike. One of the nicest riders out of all of us, and rides like he's fallen asleep. Good old quite efficiency is the hall mark of the expert ... !

    I've tried fannying around in my seat on the road, and I'm genuinely slower for doing it. I am guilty of dropping my shoulder when I'm on a charge!, but other than that and consciously moving my upper body in this chess piece one forward, one diaganol movement, I sit pretty still.

  15. #63
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    using the back brake

    over the past 4k recreational riding I have had a couple of occasions where I have gone in too hot to a bend and grabbed a little front brake. yesterdays was a bit of a classic going up the famous hartside 'race track' near penrith i was looking well ahead in good IAM style at an approaching vehicle a couple of bends ahead and misjudged my turn in point for the bend i was entering ! This was on my 848 and the bike sat up a bit but no real drama due to sensible speed.

    Apart from looking where you're going as well as ahead and then if possible applying more countersteering I wonder if I should have used the back brake, which is not something I've done before other than controling speed on a steep downhill bend or hairpin. Prompted the thought wonder what Giles has got to say about braking in corners ? I know it's to be avoided if possible but as a necessary evil what's the best technique ?

    to widen the discussion still further when otherwise do you use the back brake and how does the linked system of the gs effect all of this ?

    on my gs i use back brake for

    coming to a halt before left foot down

    when in slow moving traffic in town

    when wanting to stop sharply using both brakes

    trailing down steep bends

    low speed u turns etc

    hope i haven't missed a discussion of this somewhere else but this seems to be the right thin black line thread

    look forward to the usual useful airing of views

  16. #64
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    perhaps someone can help me, what is the twisty thing on the right handlebar for?

















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