Riding Skills - Please read

thanks Giles, interesting photo - certainly your style looks more balanced of the two. so when you ride your Gs do you consciously or perceptively push on the inside bar to start a turn or change direction smartly? Frankly it almost feels to me as though I am pulling the bar towards me initially but can then tighten the turn with countersteering once over.

I am a lucky biker and will also be getting my hands on a ducati 848 evo next feb. so I am looking forward to developing some sports bike riding skills, hopefully including a California session. meanwhile I find these threads really interesting and helpful. :thumb
 
thanks Giles, interesting photo - certainly your style looks more balanced of the two. so when you ride your Gs do you consciously or perceptively push on the inside bar to start a turn or change direction smartly? Frankly it almost feels to me as though I am pulling the bar towards me initially but can then tighten the turn with countersteering once over.

I am a lucky biker and will also be getting my hands on a ducati 848 evo next feb. so I am looking forward to developing some sports bike riding skills, hopefully including a California session. meanwhile I find these threads really interesting and helpful. :thumb

Try steering with input though your throttle hand only. You will know when you push and pull then. Or use both palms without "pulling" the bars. Always worth a play to isolate what you do from what you think you do:thumb
 
I am a lucky biker and will also be getting my hands on a ducati 848 evo next feb.



Wow, very nice too.

Do I consciously push my bars on the GS? Errrrrrr, Ummmmmm !! I don't know!! I just jump on and ride it!

I think the beemer is a very flick flack bike and is renowned for having great handling. I supose read that as 'easy' handling. You're right, it requires very little input to flick it about, so I suppose the answer is no, I don't really think about it. Some times when I'm playing and I'm cranked right over, I consciously give it a reall pull to stand it up right coming out of a bend, and I might in particular do that on a double apex where I'll leave my body position for the bend, but straighten the bike up, before dropping it in again. (get it!?) I'm sure the wide bars help alot.

You will certainly notice the difference jumping from the BM onto an 848. The Dukes bars will feel like they're 9" apart, and you'll probably notice how much slower the steering is, and how much more input into the steering you will need to move the bike about.
That doesn't make it a bad thing though. It's just different. It's like different profiled tyres, some will fall in, some need pushing in.
All round, It'll be really good for you to have different bikes in your garage that require slightly different riding styles. It'll make you a more rounded biker!! You'll be able to jump on any bike and adapt to it quickly. Lucky you !! :thumb
 
My mate tried racing a CB500 and a Blade in the same year, sometimes as he came in from one race we would have the other bike running and he would have to hop on and within 10 minutes of taking turn one on the last bike, be approaching it on the other - it did not pan out very well that year!

I still have no idea how Freddie Spencer pulled of the 250 / 500 double in an era where competitors included Lawson, Mamola, Gardner, Sarron and Haslam on the 500's and Mang, Reggiani, Lavado and Wimmer on the 250's.

Check out the results here for the ultimate adaptable rider:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Grand_Prix_motorcycle_racing_season

I find switching bikes quite hard and it takes quite a while for me to adapt, I suppose if you own both and ride them both quite a bit it should fall into place in a few miles, and I guess you will seek out different types of roads with them.

Lawson attending the CSS and it did not seem to do him too much harm either :thumb2
 
Once again a load of mistakes drilled out of riders by the CSS which so many claim is "not suitable for the road"

Here we possibly have:

Head in wrong position
Possibly not really looking where he is going, or far enough forward
Tense on bars
Arms Straight
Possibly body not as stable as it should be


Oh, i checked all the above list and i must be doing something right...........still shit though :augie :D

And i havent even been to CSS ;)

Kneedownfailure2.jpg


When i tried fast changes of direction by weighting footpegs as i used to do on the 636, the GS1150 tied itself in knots which i put down to the hugely softer suspension from the track based stuff on the sports bike
 
Davnjud - found another good video for you!!

Only gets really interesting after about 4 mins! Look for the black lines this nutter is leaving on the tarmac and his push it underneath him riding style. Works for him!!!!!!

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When i tried fast changes of direction by weighting footpegs as i used to do on the 636, the GS1150 tied itself in knots which i put down to the hugely softer suspension from the track based stuff on the sports bike

That may be because weighting footpegs does nothing, if you had been to the school you would know this, they have a no BS bike which has a set of rigid handlebars with second throttle / brake, on the DVD they have guy standing on one peg to demonstrate how weighting does naff all.

My mate reckons you can stand side-saddle and jump up and down on the pegs and it barely changes direction, however applying pressure to pegs as part of stabilising yourself on the bike, getting a better body position and being able to put more force into bars etc when steering does make a difference.

If you aint seen it check out the DVD, some great camera locations and tricks have been used to prove / disprove many theories and myths.
 
I hate to agree with rasher about the Californian fecking super bike school :)blast !!!), I do push my feet into my pegs, but it's to act as a platform, something to push against in order to push me forward, and ultimately to put pressure into the bars. For me, It's a bit like flicking a pulse through a long bit of rope or hose pipe that's laid out on the ground. My push into the bars, starts from the opposite foot and sends a pulse up and across my shoulders and down into my opposite hand.

Having said that, The GS is such a flickable bike anyway, I don't think about it that much, some of the sports bikes I've had though, did need a bit more input (mental and physical) to turn them quickly.

I just know that some pepes will read all this and say what a load of complete bollox!!! And they're not wrong either!!!

It's what ever works for you. That's the important bit, If you think or do something that gives you confidence and gives you some sort of mental reasurance, then do it! Even if it means crouching down by yer foot peg, and then pulling yer leathers out the crack of your arse as you leave the pits. ;)
 
Oh, i checked all the above list and i must be doing something right...........still shit though :augie :D

And i havent even been to CSS ;)

Kneedownfailure2.jpg


When i tried fast changes of direction by weighting footpegs as i used to do on the 636, the GS1150 tied itself in knots which i put down to the hugely softer suspension from the track based stuff on the sports bike

This is an old chestnut about what does what but basically you will help a bike with the footpegs if you are already countersteering but you will not ultimately steer a bike with footpegs/knees/shopping etc without countersteering. Try steering the bike (in a nice safe spot like a big empty carpark:augie) off a straight line with either countersteering or footpegs. With footpegs the bike will change direction but not "steer" very accurately. With just the bars you can make it do anything steering wise you want. Even try with feet off slightly.

The trouble is the racing theory that people read is a big leap from road riding and even though it is relevant for this peg or that peg, it is a help rather than an outright method. The Keith Code stuff will give you some great ideas but I have always used it as a help to other stuff.

The main thing is that you are happy with how you change direction at a range of speeds on the road, just in case you really have to in normal riding or an emergency. Whatever bike you have will "feel" different and it is that confidence "you" have that makes the difference.

Countersteering, braking, cornering etc are fundamentals of riding a bike and if you get to grips with the "feel" and have your own method it won't matter whether you ride a Harley or a 50cc scooter, you will be able to adapt.

When I was an instructor I used to blag a go on any bike I could and it is great experience for seperating what you do on all bikes from characteristics of the bike. I took out big Harleys and Dukes for a pose and 50's to see what shit they got on the road! All great fun and fundamentally the same:D
 
Countersteering, braking, cornering etc are fundamentals of riding a bike and if you get to grips with the "feel" and have your own method it won't matter whether you ride a Harley or a 50cc scooter, you will be able to adapt.

When I was an instructor I used to blag a go on any bike I could and it is great experience for seperating what you do on all bikes from characteristics of the bike. I took out big Harleys and Dukes for a pose and 50's to see what shit they got on the road! All great fun and fundamentally the same:D

I used to have a harley sportster custom which was my first bike back after a 29 year break. I had real trouble cornering on this until I read about countersteering. When i learned to ride in the 70''s can't remember ever hearing about it. Boy did it make a difference. I think that the long trail of a custom fork geometry amplifies the countersteering effect. Still I hope I might be cornering a bit faster on my 848 evo !

wrigsby I met a guy at devils bridge who spoke of a friend up your way with a 20 bike collection but who always chose to ride his Gs first - are you he by any chance ?

:beerjug:
 
I hate to agree with rasher about the Californian fecking super bike school :)blast !!!), I do push my feet into my pegs, but it's to act as a platform, something to push against in order to push me forward, and ultimately to put pressure into the bars. For me, It's a bit like flicking a pulse through a long bit of rope or hose pipe that's laid out on the ground. My push into the bars, starts from the opposite foot and sends a pulse up and across my shoulders and down into my opposite hand.

Having said that, The GS is such a flickable bike anyway, I don't think about it that much, some of the sports bikes I've had though, did need a bit more input (mental and physical) to turn them quickly.

I just know that some pepes will read all this and say what a load of complete bollox!!! And they're not wrong either!!!

I


Giles, on the contrary this is a very helpful description of what you feel when riding. Not sure i agree that whatever works for you is ok - at the extreme of lean and control good style like yours is worth having and probably safer than than the guy with rigid arms and head in the wrong place. no need to be too modest - It's obvious you know what you're talking about :thumb
 
Davnjud - found another good video for you!!

Only gets really interesting after about 4 mins! Look for the black lines this nutter is leaving on the tarmac and his push it underneath him riding style. Works for him!!!!!!

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_r-1t6D5E6U?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_r-1t6D5E6U?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>

thanks Giles.
no doubt about it those guys can ride.:clap I imagine in your day job you might be tempted to ' have a little word in your shell like valentino...' T shirts clearly the right clothing for such adventures ! :eek:
 
Pegs Down - Check

Knee Down - Check

Engine Cases Down - Check

Elbow Down - Check


I suppose on the road this may get you a ticket ?

R1.jpg
 
I used to have a harley sportster custom which was my first bike back after a 29 year break. I had real trouble cornering on this until I read about countersteering. When i learned to ride in the 70''s can't remember ever hearing about it. Boy did it make a difference. I think that the long trail of a custom fork geometry amplifies the countersteering effect. Still I hope I might be cornering a bit faster on my 848 evo !

wrigsby I met a guy at devils bridge who spoke of a friend up your way with a 20 bike collection but who always chose to ride his Gs first - are you he by any chance ?

:beerjug:

Ha, ha, ha:D Not me... I'm a bit of a 1 bike collector:D There are plenty of folk up here with serious shed collections as in agricultural sheds...:augie Tractors, cars, bikes, boats... The Classic Show up here is held every 2nd year and is always amazingly popular and there are plenty of folk with big winter "projects".... How many winters they take is another matter:D

I used to have my GS and a trials bike, and recently sold a K11LT, but I like to use 'em and the GS usually gets favour! There are quite a few bikers here with some great bikes though. It's also a good place to fix things as there is always someone who knows. Never enough buyers though so if you want to flog bikes locally you have to put out the word and wait.... Never my strong point:augie

PS I used to instruct and thought that teaching countersteering was vital to the safety of students. It is sometimes hard to get the principle across as, like you say, the "feel" is so different across a range of bikes and lighter bikes or bigger bars are usually "lighter" to steer.

It was not part of the DSA guidelines at the time and I am not sure whether they have woken up yet or are still trusting to the "luck" principle:augie Perhaps why so many roads in places such a Derbyshire have those lurid accident stat signs on the popular bendy roads.....................................
 
Well I'm rather afraid that I'm a rather old fashioned fart :eek:

I don't lean in, I don't get my knee down, I don't push or pull, I don't even weight my pegs, I don't press down on my pegs. I don't drop my shoulder, I don't transfer weight anywhere ... I just sit there and ride the feckin' thing :)

Photographs of me on track days showed me rather surprisingly, to me, leaning out and presumably pushing the 'bike down ... but I didn't know I was doing that until I saw the piccies. :eek:

Riding like this stood me well for three consecutive High Performance Courses at der Nürburgring. First a 3rd in group, then two 2nds in group ... the groups consisting of ten to twelve riders on Blades, R1's, 916's etc. The oldest man and on a BMW ;)

I guess I was good in my time, but as the T shirt my mate bought me says...

"The Older I get The Faster I was!"

Ride safe ...
:beerjug:
 
This is an old chestnut about what does what but basically you will help a bike with the footpegs if you are already countersteering but you will not ultimately steer a bike with footpegs/knees/shopping etc without countersteering. Try steering the bike (in a nice safe spot like a big empty carpark:augie) off a straight line with either countersteering or footpegs. With footpegs the bike will change direction but not "steer" very accurately. With just the bars you can make it do anything steering wise you want. Even try with feet off slightly.

The trouble is the racing theory that people read is a big leap from road riding and even though it is relevant for this peg or that peg, it is a help rather than an outright method. The Keith Code stuff will give you some great ideas but I have always used it as a help to other stuff.

The main thing is that you are happy with how you change direction at a range of speeds on the road, just in case you really have to in normal riding or an emergency. Whatever bike you have will "feel" different and it is that confidence "you" have that makes the difference.

Countersteering, braking, cornering etc are fundamentals of riding a bike and if you get to grips with the "feel" and have your own method it won't matter whether you ride a Harley or a 50cc scooter, you will be able to adapt.

When I was an instructor I used to blag a go on any bike I could and it is great experience for seperating what you do on all bikes from characteristics of the bike. I took out big Harleys and Dukes for a pose and 50's to see what shit they got on the road! All great fun and fundamentally the same:D

Just to clarify, i do already use countersteering quite a bit on the road and i dont do trackdays so knee downs are rare ;)

When i mentioned the pegs weighting i used to find on the sports bike that (what felt to me like) pushing down on the outside peg would lift the bike from the line it was on and then releasing the pressure would drop it back in again.

Thats what it "felt" like i was doing when perhaps i was just shifting the base weight around ................i dont know as i am not of the riding ability of others to constantly analyse everything but try to understand some of it. I do know that riding the GS the same was a no no and have, as you put it, adapted my riding to suit between different styles of bikes.

One person i learned lots from was AdamA who was the first person i ever rode with (after years of riding round on my own thinking everything was all good) who took me to one side not long after we first met and started to try to get me thinking about my riding and pointing out what i could do different to improve (apparently sometimes i overthink my riding but on the days i dont its obvious when it all clicks :blast)

I hope some of it sank in but i know i still need to improve corner speed and fine tune positioning at times although thats an aspect of my riding that has improved a lot.......... on other sites i generally have stayed away from these types of subforums as they degenerate into 16 page arguments over a miniscule aspect of riding when 2 contrary viewpoints arise but on here its doesnt seem the case so i'll read on :thumb2

As a final aside, anyone like to analyse my mate Danny's riding style..........I know it shouldnt work but he used to do well club racing, on an aged 400 on treaded tyres getting podiums :augie

Danny_Palmer_Brands_400-1.jpg


DannyPlydden-1.jpg
 
Well it don't matter how fast your going with a style like that :thumb2

And falling off should be pretty painless from that low down.
 
I think that may be safely called "hanging off":D I think he shows a very youthful flexibility that I haven't got an f'ing chance of copying:D

To Mickey, I have never had my knee down, had lots of fun riding fast on roads for many years and follow your saying "just ride the f'ing thing":D

It's just some of us have had to be able to describe it to somone else for training or similar and especially when you are training inexperienced riders, you have to be able to break it down into safe and bitesized chunks.

A couple of the most f'ing stupid thing i have heard said is "look at the exit of the bend and the bike will go there" and a CSM Rider Training manual from the early 90's said "push down on the bar" or "push left knee into tank to go right" and visa versa.

Sometimes when you are training you have to be able to stop or save people from the shit and sadly if someone has frozen up mid bend neither of the above will do a f'ing thing. That is why things like countersteering are so vital to active trainers as they hopefully stop this in the 1st place and at least give you something useful to say if it does.

I tend to think a bit like my courier days which is "loosen up and go quicker":D

In London as a courier when I saw a bike accident I thought "go quicker" or basically "don't bottle it". When you were in and out of traffic for most of the day, self belief was very important!!
 
I do notice quite a few riders tryng to hang off on the road, normally they are holding me up in my diesel tin box!

I think quite a few riders watch moto-gp on telly and think that is how to ride, quite sad really as although they think they look cool, I think they probably do not have a clue how to control a motorcyle and normally they are on something pretty damn fast.

I would also agree that hanging off on the road is pretty pointless for much (if not all) of the time, adjusting body position is fine, but proper hanging off I am sure adds nothing except possibly a bit of fun.
 


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