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Thread: Positioning

  1. #17
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    Good thread! There are people to respect and ride with who will be different in many things but they are still good. Much of it is personal preference and comfort. Good, comfortable riders can be spotted very quickly 'cos they make it look smooth and easy.

    It's the advanced "luvvies" convoys that should be interrogated. In between their back slaps of course

    As with everything it's not the "hows" but the "why's" that matter

  2. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boon View Post
    Is that your issi number in pic 1?
    Will be the number of the mainset radio issued to the bike as opposed to a personal one i would have thought

  3. #19
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    Thanks very much
    Some great reading there.

    I'm constantly trying to learn stuff and reading stuff as well put as this is a real advantage. The only bit i'm still slightly confused about is the bit you mentioned about the turn-in point on the right hander early on.

    I'll read it again tho

  4. #20
    Don't be blinded by science!

    For road riding, I'm not to keen on the idea or the term 'turn in point'. That's very much a track based tool that has little relevance on the road, and to me smacks of braking points, Keith Codes 'two step' approach to cornering, faster lap times and all that. Good fun, a good science, but not for the road.

    The faster you take a corner, by and large, the more you can't help but to apex it. (Back to Tomcats question..) If its a flat open corner, great - apex it!

    I remember a while ago, being on quite a quick bit of road, long straight, with a ninety degree right hand bend at the end of it. There was a garden centre oposite the corner. As I approched it, quite quickly, something in my head (and its back to that old bikers instinct that somebody was talking about earlier) told me, just push it a little bit deeper into this right hand bend before you turn. Sure enough there was an old retired gent in is old Ford Anglia or summit, right on the apex of what was for him a left hand bend, about to turn across my path into the garden centre carpark. The bloke had done absolutely nothing wrong, it was just one of those scenarios that could have been a accident if a bike had gone steaming into the corner, a bit too quick and cut it a fraction.

    I don't think 'there's my turn in point' when I ride. But i might well think, 'open up this bend' (this view) before I lean into the corner.

    Semantics? playing with words? maybe! Just not too keen on the terminology 'Turn in point' !

  5. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by giles lamb View Post
    Don't be blinded by science!

    For road riding, I'm not to keen on the idea or the term 'turn in point'. That's very much a track based tool that has little relevance on the road, and to me smacks of braking points, Keith Codes 'two step' approach to cornering, faster lap times and all that. Good fun, a good science, but not for the road.
    I think understanding what a turn point is helps on the road, again i don't really have them as road riding is too fluid and dependant on surface (which often changes from one day to the next) and other traffic etc.

    However I do know at some point I must turn, the other Code term I like is "Target Fixation" very common, everyone gets it from time to time, but I recognise it, if it is caused by me approaching a bend a bit too quick I know I must turn and I must look where I want to go, so instead of panick braking and heading towards the hedge, I look through the bend and know I need to get off the brakes at some point and turn the bike so I may choose a turn point based upon if I do not turn by then I will not make the corner.

    So I look into the bend, turn in and then apply "throttle control rule number one" I am sure all this stuff has saved me on several occasions.

    I am still pretty crap, but I know what I am doing wrong and how to improve (although it is slow progress) I recognise when I am getting out of my depth and how to control the panic and get back on track, then kick myself for being a dick in the first place.

    Training is always good, both IAM type stuff, Roadcraft courses and handling courses, bike control improvement is as useful as roadcraft improvement, but religously applying science is fruitless on the road or track in my experience as there are always variable which cause you to alter your plans slightly.

  6. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by giles lamb View Post
    Don't be blinded by science!

    For road riding, I'm not to keen on the idea or the term 'turn in point'. That's very much a track based tool that has little relevance on the road, and to me smacks of braking points, Keith Codes 'two step' approach to cornering, faster lap times and all that. Good fun, a good science, but not for the road.

    The faster you take a corner, by and large, the more you can't help but to apex it. (Back to Tomcats question..) If its a flat open corner, great - apex it!

    I remember a while ago, being on quite a quick bit of road, long straight, with a ninety degree right hand bend at the end of it. There was a garden centre oposite the corner. As I approched it, quite quickly, something in my head (and its back to that old bikers instinct that somebody was talking about earlier) told me, just push it a little bit deeper into this right hand bend before you turn. Sure enough there was an old retired gent in is old Ford Anglia or summit, right on the apex of what was for him a left hand bend, about to turn across my path into the garden centre carpark. The bloke had done absolutely nothing wrong, it was just one of those scenarios that could have been a accident if a bike had gone steaming into the corner, a bit too quick and cut it a fraction.

    I don't think 'there's my turn in point' when I ride. But i might well think, 'open up this bend' (this view) before I lean into the corner.

    Semantics? playing with words? maybe! Just not too keen on the terminology 'Turn in point' !
    Just about my philosophy in my teachings... there are no apexes on roads on corners that you can't see round.

    It's a sad fact that most people 'come in' too soon on corners that you can't see round, and are 'invited' to do so the quicker they are going! Often with disastrous consequences.

    Can't see round a bend? Then stay wide, stay late... until the corner opens up!

    Good thread
    Adventure.GS
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  7. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micky View Post
    Just about my philosophy in my teachings... there are no apexes on roads on corners that you can't see round.

    It's a sad fact that most people 'come in' too soon on corners that you can't see round, and are 'invited' to do so the quicker they are going! Often with disastrous consequences.

    Can't see round a bend? Then stay wide, stay late... until the corner opens up!

    Good thread
    Good bit about "turn in", "braking point" and all that racing lingo...

    Also experience tells you that if you push yourself on "closed" corners to the extent that you unecessarily take risks with what you can see then eventually you are going to come a cropper.

    I did a couple of track days many years ago and i really missed this "extra" dimensions of traffic, junctions etc. I once asked a track orientated bloke "where do you turn in for X bend?" and he said "aim for the 1st tree at the side and turn in at the edge of the track" and he was right

    It is the ability to judge the "cushion" you give yourself that makes road riding so skillful. There is no need to go way outside of that when there are obvious dangers to it and when there are so many bits of road that are more favourable.

    Still, one of the most fun rides i have had recently was on a pretty blind, bendy roller coaster of a back A road in Derbyshire in the pissing rain when riding Sheff to Cornwall. It was a challenge, kept me thinking and was great GS country to boot

  8. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micky View Post
    Just about my philosophy in my teachings... there are no apexes on roads on corners that you can't see round.

    It's a sad fact that most people 'come in' too soon on corners that you can't see round, and are 'invited' to do so the quicker they are going! Often with disastrous consequences.

    Can't see round a bend? Then stay wide, stay late... until the corner opens up!

    Good thread
    Thanks Giles, I am enjoying this thread a lot. I am a returning biker and passed my IAM test this year, now hoping to train as an observer. My ride to work is twisty Broads for 20 miles and I have modified my line over time on several corners. I am not totally in agreement with the quote above even though I know it standard IAM advice. While initially I tended to follow the system of staying out just left of the centre line on long left handers on too many occasions I had to steer quickly to my left to maintain a safe distance from oncoming traffic. I accept that I saw this traffic earlier by being out but with a short view the closing speed seems very rapid ( say 50 +40 = 90mph) and if both vehicles then reaction steer away away from each other this doesn't feel right. So now on these sweeping blind left handers I keep to the just right of centre of my carriageway ( position 2.5) on the assumption that a vehicle is about to hove into view which it frequently does. However there is no nervous flutter when I see the vehicle or any steering action by him we just pass each other at the same safe separation. I also find keeping in position 1 nearside through many blind right handers keeps a good separation from oncoming traffic. Any views on all of this ?

  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by davnjud View Post
    Thanks Giles, I am enjoying this thread a lot. I am a returning biker and passed my IAM test this year, now hoping to train as an observer. My ride to work is twisty Broads for 20 miles and I have modified my line over time on several corners. I am not totally in agreement with the quote above even though I know it standard IAM advice. While initially I tended to follow the system of staying out just left of the centre line on long left handers on too many occasions I had to steer quickly to my left to maintain a safe distance from oncoming traffic. I accept that I saw this traffic earlier by being out but with a short view the closing speed seems very rapid ( say 50 +40 = 90mph) and if both vehicles then reaction steer away away from each other this doesn't feel right. So now on these sweeping blind left handers I keep to the just right of centre of my carriageway ( position 2.5) on the assumption that a vehicle is about to hove into view which it frequently does. However there is no nervous flutter when I see the vehicle or any steering action by him we just pass each other at the same safe separation. I also find keeping in position 1 nearside through many blind right handers keeps a good separation from oncoming traffic. Any views on all of this ?
    My observations above are not those of the IAM davnjud, but those of a motorcyclist of 47 years and a police motorcyclist for thirty of those years

    Over to Giles..

    Adventure.GS
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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by davnjud View Post
    Thanks Giles, I am enjoying this thread a lot. I am a returning biker and passed my IAM test this year, now hoping to train as an observer. My ride to work is twisty Broads for 20 miles and I have modified my line over time on several corners. I am not totally in agreement with the quote above even though I know it standard IAM advice. While initially I tended to follow the system of staying out just left of the centre line on long left handers on too many occasions I had to steer quickly to my left to maintain a safe distance from oncoming traffic. I accept that I saw this traffic earlier by being out but with a short view the closing speed seems very rapid ( say 50 +40 = 90mph) and if both vehicles then reaction steer away away from each other this doesn't feel right. So now on these sweeping blind left handers I keep to the just right of centre of my carriageway ( position 2.5) on the assumption that a vehicle is about to hove into view which it frequently does. However there is no nervous flutter when I see the vehicle or any steering action by him we just pass each other at the same safe separation. I also find keeping in position 1 nearside through many blind right handers keeps a good separation from oncoming traffic. Any views on all of this ?
    I agree to a point with your left hander take as with a boxer and panniers you do feel "stuck out" a bit more. Also very important is the comfort that you can change direction instantly.

    Countersteering is also linked with things like the correct gear. If you hold high gears low revs well into corners then you might find that you have too much momentum with not enough engine control. A well balanced bike will "countersteer" instantly to tighten your line.

    It is one of the obsessions of the advanced brigade that they hold outside lines come what may. I have thought that an oncoming car wins over a parked car for hazard and an oncoming truck would make me change line It is amazing how "stuck" people will become in their theory

  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micky View Post
    My observations above are not those of the IAM davnjud, but those of a motorcyclist of 47 years and a police motorcyclist for thirty of those years

    Over to Giles..

    Micky - I can and do respect that -that's a lot of miles and incidents you must have witnessed

  12. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by davnjud View Post
    Micky - I can and do respect that -that's a lot of miles and incidents you must have witnessed
    Cheers

    To quote Giles above...

    "I don't think 'there's my turn in point' when I ride. But i might well think, 'open up this bend' (this view) before I lean into the corner".

    This is bang on ... it's not a question of where's my turn in point, we gell from corner to corner, hazard to hazard in a smooooth flowing line with no sudden and abrupt positioning

    'Turn in' means by definition a moment where we alter our course, but we don't ... we flow... we leave one corner on the correct line for the next. It's not rocket science

    Not wanting to hijack Giles' excellent thread, but speaking of Rocket Science here's an article I wrote some years ago .... Link


    I think, I hope, we all kick towards the same goalposts of keeping ourselves rubber side down and between the hedges


    Adventure.GS
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  13. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Micky View Post

    Not wanting to hijack Giles' excellent thread, but ....


    Not at all, NOT AT ALL!!

    The more contributions, the better. And as we said earlier, a whole bunch of trained riders may still have their own, slightly differing take, on a particular issue.

    Back to Davnjud's question, (and if your training as an observer, its good that these sort of discussions take place!...), the bottom line is this; if you're having to 'steer quickly to my left to avoid....oncoming....', then that is, well, wrong!! I go back to this idea that on a left hander you can't stay out, gambling in effect, and I see far too many riders doing exactly your scenario; 'feck me, get back quick there's an oncoming car'. WRONG!!

    I do think it goes down to, as discussed, this idea of, riding a little bit black and white, and not taking it to the next, third, thinking, considered level. I also think there can be an element of show boating. I've been there!! Given some training, go out with the boys, show off and make a complete cock of yourself - sailing into left handers with oncoming traffic on full beam!! I've done it!!
    And that to me is part of the learning curve - it doesn't justify it, but it's human nature that ones educational pendlum will swing too far one way, before finding that happy medium. Good!

  14. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by giles lamb View Post
    Not at all, NOT AT ALL!!

    The more contributions, the better. And as we said earlier, a whole bunch of trained riders may still have their own, slightly differing take, on a particular issue.

    Back to Davnjud's question, (and if your training as an observer, its good that these sort of discussions take place!...), the bottom line is this; if you're having to 'steer quickly to my left to avoid....oncoming....', then that is, well, wrong!! I go back to this idea that on a left hander you can't stay out, gambling in effect, and I see far too many riders doing exactly your scenario; 'feck me, get back quick there's an oncoming car'. WRONG!!

    I do think it goes down to, as discussed, this idea of, riding a little bit black and white, and not taking it to the next, third, thinking, considered level. I also think there can be an element of show boating. I've been there!! Given some training, go out with the boys, show off and make a complete cock of yourself - sailing into left handers with oncoming traffic on full beam!! I've done it!!
    And that to me is part of the learning curve - it doesn't justify it, but it's human nature that ones educational pendlum will swing too far one way, before finding that happy medium. Good!
    Good stuff! That is what I have felt over the years... the black and white mentality shown by some people as to this or that. That is where the Sunday run training can go awry (and even the Police )... it becomes a facimile of the instructors style rather than thought through.

    I have also followed position constipated blokes and though "don't want something to come now" 'cos they are hung out to dry so to speak. I rarely ride in a group but I like follow some folk as it's better to keep an eye on 'em

  15. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigyin View Post
    Will be the number of the mainset radio issued to the bike as opposed to a personal one i would have thought
    Long time no speak big yin.......being from the frozen northlands I dont recognise the force id code.

    Was just curious...........it could easily have been a controllers id.........I would get a strange reply if I'd P2P direct to some control room in englandshire........sorry for the hijack..........

  16. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by giles lamb View Post
    Not at all, NOT AT ALL!!

    The more contributions, the better. And as we said earlier, a whole bunch of trained riders may still have their own, slightly differing take, on a particular issue.

    Back to Davnjud's question, (and if your training as an observer, its good that these sort of discussions take place!...), the bottom line is this; if you're having to 'steer quickly to my left to avoid....oncoming....', then that is, well, wrong!! I go back to this idea that on a left hander you can't stay out, gambling in effect, and I see far too many riders doing exactly your scenario; 'feck me, get back quick there's an oncoming car'. WRONG!!

    I do think it goes down to, as discussed, this idea of, riding a little bit black and white, and not taking it to the next, third, thinking, considered level. I also think there can be an element of show boating. I've been there!! Given some training, go out with the boys, show off and make a complete cock of yourself - sailing into left handers with oncoming traffic on full beam!! I've done it!!
    And that to me is part of the learning curve - it doesn't justify it, but it's human nature that ones educational pendlum will swing too far one way, before finding that happy medium. Good!
    thanks - I glad that my intuition ( but not training) has lead me to the correct positioning decision. It seems that there are ( at least ) two types of left handers

    a) the shorter ones that you can see right though a lot earlier by keeping out

    b|) longer ones where keeping out for view can compromise safety if the view/ speed trade off still does not extend far enough to be sure you are safely clear of unseen oncoming.

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