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Thread: Overtaking

  1. #17
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    If we ride along thinking position... speed... gear.. We sure as hell are going to ride like the England team played! But I've certainly been there, I'm sure I remember riding back then (80's) thinking to myself, errr, So i've got to consider my course here, my position, errr shall i brake or take a gear, errrr .....!
    This makes me think of my mate Keith Codes $10 of attention, for those unfamiliar it is aling the lines of...

    You have $10 of attention to spend, go overdrawn and your beyond your limits.

    Everything costs you something, a novice riding for the first time may spend $9 just trying to use the clutch to pull away, or $3 to change gear.

    Valentino Rossi only has $10 as well, but a gear change may only cost him 1 cent of attention, whereas perhaps it costs me 20 cents.

    The art is to get the costs down, if using the clutch, gears etc is csoting you a few cents you have over $9 left for actually riding the motorcycle.

    If you exceed you $10 you have to cut something out of the budget, typically riding too fast can do this, the vehicle control aspect is using all your attention and the first thing to go (IMO) is probably good forward observation and planning.

    And then you get into the 5 P's

  2. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasher View Post

    And then you get into the 5 P's
    I use the 6 P strategy

    Perfect Planning Prevents PPoor Performance


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  3. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Micky View Post
    [II would rather be closer to a vehicle coming towards me than those I am overtaking even though the collision speed would be much higher

    I can see them ... they can see me, we can work to inches between ourselves. The guy I'm overtaking might not know that I'm coming past, he needs more leeway in my mind ... just my take on the matter ya understand

    Yes! Just as a talking point, and looking at this idea operationally (the ex plods would know all this...), when on an emergency call one way of getting through traffic is to use the offside and drive 'at' the on coming vehicles. Clearly this could be miss read here and now, as flipping stupid and likely to cause an accident, but done with a bit of thought and care, this way can be actually safer than trying to deal with the vehicles in front on 'your side' of the road and getting them to stop or pull over. As Micky says, the oncoming can see you and are often more easily dealt with than the vehicles we're coming up behind, who can get completely flummoxed on what they shoud do.


    Clearly we can't go around riding 'at' people on our day to day riding, but it's food for thought that showing yourself to oncoming can have its place. (the old Take Use Give malarky..!!)

  4. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by giles lamb View Post
    Yes! Just as a talking point, and looking at this idea operationally (the ex plods would know all this...), when on an emergency call one way of getting through traffic is to use the offside and drive 'at' the on coming vehicles. Clearly this could be miss read here and now, as flipping stupid and likely to cause an accident, but done with a bit of thought and care, this way can be actually safer than trying to deal with the vehicles in front on 'your side' of the road and getting them to stop or pull over. As Micky says, the oncoming can see you and are often more easily dealt with than the vehicles we're coming up behind, who can get completely flummoxed on what they shoud do.


    Clearly we can't go around riding 'at' people on our day to day riding, but it's food for thought that showing yourself to oncoming can have its place. (the old Take Use Give malarky..!!)
    Ah, but you guys have the advantage of some extra coloured lights, a bit of noise, and the easily spottable Special Edition colour scheme to help...

    Also you can "hold your position" but if the other fecker isn't paying any attention those "inches" between you and them might just become a lack of inches on you...

    I use the road and use my position but "high expectations" when you might be talking 120mph+ combined speed give you far less chance of avoiding the "texter etc" than a probable 20mph difference on your side. If you have the lateral space, use it..... if you don't its the lesser of the two risks...

    I am always conscious of the difference between overtaking on slower country or semi urban areas and on roads like many of the vids which were open and far quicker. The speed of oncoming vehicles means that they have to be really on the ball otherwise they will be quite oblivious of you. It has to be remembered how long it takes the average driver to switch from semi-aware car induced "convoy" dozyness to WTF is he doing mode. Same for oncoming bikes... How many are thinking of quicker bikes coming towards them...

    Good debate though and hopefully will help some less experience/confident riders to get their collective shit together as riding is mostly a state of mind...

  5. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasher View Post
    This makes me think of my mate Keith Codes $10 of attention, for those unfamiliar it is aling the lines of...

    You have $10 of attention to spend, go overdrawn and your beyond your limits.

    Everything costs you something, a novice riding for the first time may spend $9 just trying to use the clutch to pull away, or $3 to change gear.

    Valentino Rossi only has $10 as well, but a gear change may only cost him 1 cent of attention, whereas perhaps it costs me 20 cents.

    The art is to get the costs down, if using the clutch, gears etc is csoting you a few cents you have over $9 left for actually riding the motorcycle.

    If you exceed you $10 you have to cut something out of the budget, typically riding too fast can do this, the vehicle control aspect is using all your attention and the first thing to go (IMO) is probably good forward observation and planning.

    And then you get into the 5 P's
    It's very similay to the old way of "unconciously incompetent... consciously incompetent... consciously competent... unconsciously competent" stuff. Experience give you the last one and then you do the mechanics of riding without thinking so much and concentrate on what is going on with all the other stuff.............

    That's the time when it get so much easier as you see all the other shit rather than using 50% on the bike.

    The trouble is with some of these "advanced rides" is there is no heart rate monitor to see if the bloke in front is hyped up or not as if he is that is not too good will probably lead to a feck up somewhere along the line.

    Relaxed grip, relaxed head and relaxed body and all that.

  6. #22
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    A good thread, even if some of the available clips only show you how not to do it.
    Link to Headcase - Recognising the signs of concussion

  7. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by giles lamb View Post
    Yes! Just as a talking point, and looking at this idea operationally (the ex plods would know all this...), when on an emergency call one way of getting through traffic is to use the offside and drive 'at' the on coming vehicles. Clearly this could be miss read here and now, as flipping stupid and likely to cause an accident, but done with a bit of thought and care, this way can be actually safer than trying to deal with the vehicles in front on 'your side' of the road and getting them to stop or pull over. As Micky says, the oncoming can see you and are often more easily dealt with than the vehicles we're coming up behind, who can get completely flummoxed on what they shoud do.


    Clearly we can't go around riding 'at' people on our day to day riding, but it's food for thought that showing yourself to oncoming can have its place. (the old Take Use Give malarky..!!)
    Absolutely, it was common practice when I lived dahn Sarf, both leisure riding and when despatching. Never had a problem with any oncoming traffic at all. And no-one else seemed to have either.

    Oddly, the situation was completely different on the way back from Aberdeen on the A road to Inverness after Gerts funeral. There were some huge tailbacks on the road and I wasn't prepared to arse about in a queue, so I did what I've done hundreds of times before and rode down the middle with oncoming traffic.

    If I had one driver flash his lights and swerve unecessarily to their left I must have had a dozen. It really seemed to freak them out. I got the distinct impression that they weren't used to seeing this and didn't know how to deal with it.

    Maybe it's because the GS has more 'presence' and appears bigger to oncoming drivers than sports bikes etc?

    It certainly wasn't a case of me forcing them to change speed or direction.

  8. #24
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    Road Presence

    Quote Originally Posted by giles lamb View Post
    Yes! Just as a talking point, and looking at this idea operationally (the ex plods would know all this...), when on an emergency call one way of getting through traffic is to use the offside and drive 'at' the on coming vehicles. Clearly this could be miss read here and now, as flipping stupid and likely to cause an accident, but done with a bit of thought and care, this way can be actually safer than trying to deal with the vehicles in front on 'your side' of the road and getting them to stop or pull over. As Micky says, the oncoming can see you and are often more easily dealt with than the vehicles we're coming up behind, who can get completely flummoxed on what they shoud do.


    Clearly we can't go around riding 'at' people on our day to day riding, but it's food for thought that showing yourself to oncoming can have its place. (the old Take Use Give malarky..!!)
    Great post, and how it takes me back. This business of driving "at" vehicles when using the off side of the road is what I now describe to my mates as "raising my presence on the road" Of course it's one thing to do it behind the wheel of a big motor with blues and twos activated, and another on a flimsy(!) bike, but the principle is still the same, sortof. I carry out this principle not with the object of forcing cars out of my way, this is an impossible dream, but more to establish to on-coming cars that [B]I am there[B]. I always ease over to the nearer side in kind of deference to the oncoming traffic too, 'cos I really believe that the psychology of driving can get me in trouble. What I mean by this is that, the individual that sees me on "his" side of the road and who has a belligerent attitude could well seek to "teach me a lesson" and this is something to avoid.

    When I started to ride with a group of riders, comments were made regarding my speed and overtaking. What I tried to point out was that my overall speed was not that much greater than theirs, but my training taught me to make progression through traffic with regard to safety of course, some of them understood but others didn't. With this in mind, I took up a rear position in the group and watched the others. One thing became very obvious. Most of them "switched off" when following car(s) and failed to recognise the many overtaking opportunities that presented themselves, only "switching on" again after some time. On the other hand, every time I see a vehicle in front of me I go into overtaking mode, gearing myself up and looking for the opportunity that I know will be there. This is not to say I ride "hot", just that the vehicle is in front of me and will usually be an impediment to my progression. Maintaining concentration/observation at a high level is also a vital function of all of this, and this varies considerably from one person to another. Something that should be considered in group rides.

    Giles, love this thread and great to find others that speak the same language!!

  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by giles lamb View Post
    Yes! Just as a talking point, and looking at this idea operationally (the ex plods would know all this...), when on an emergency call one way of getting through traffic is to use the offside and drive 'at' the on coming vehicles. Clearly this could be miss read here and now, as flipping stupid and likely to cause an accident, but done with a bit of thought and care, this way can be actually safer than trying to deal with the vehicles in front on 'your side' of the road and getting them to stop or pull over. As Micky says, the oncoming can see you and are often more easily dealt with than the vehicles we're coming up behind, who can get completely flummoxed on what they shoud do.


    Clearly we can't go around riding 'at' people on our day to day riding, but it's food for thought that showing yourself to oncoming can have its place. (the old Take Use Give malarky..!!)
    Sorry to rock the boat but I've been commuting into central London from Kent for over 12 years (all year round) and I would seriously think twice about heading into oncoming traffic. Why? Because not only have I had the odd driver swerve towards me agressively (whilst filtering close to stationery traffic - in Lewisham one incident), but I have actually had the rear indicator fecking taken off my Transalp by an oncoming lorry (one of those big pickup/dump trucks).

    This was also in Lewisham by the clock tower traffic lights, I was hanging (slightly out) to get a view from behind a coach - never again. I treat oncoming traffic with respect and as though everyone last fecking one of them hates bikers..Hopefully I'll not hit another one.

    Rich

    ps best thing I ever did (10 years ago) was an advanced riding course (Honda) taken out for two days by ex-police rider. Teach you to make progress and use every inch of the road for visability - even the other side of the road going around bends (no oncoming traffic). And defensively - I havent got sirens and blue light and a badge.

    How many of you filter down the outside of stationery traffic going into oncoming traffic? A friend of mine rides for the SEG in London and he doesnt do it if he can help it - not unless he's on his police bike.....

  10. #26
    An hour or two ago I nearly posted a 'Whoa there' ..... about driving at off side stuff, but didn't!

    When I'm at work, on a call, there is a time and a place for, (blue lights and all that), riding at traffic. That would mostly be fairly urban, or at least with a very very good view. (ie a far ahead view..). So, to clarify, not on a twisty national speed limit road! That technique, at work!! has it's place.

    To be fair (to me) I did write;

    Clearly we can't go around riding 'at' people on our day to day riding, but it's food for thought that showing yourself to oncoming can have its place. (the old Take Use Give malarky..!!)

    I stand by that. There is a time and a place to show yourself. But it's that - a time and a place, and that's getting muddled with, 'Hell yeah, lets ride at the feckers, we'll soon move 'em over..'!!! I am not for one minute advocating that riding at traffic is a good idea and a technique we should all try!!

    Errr, trying to think of an example off the top of my head when you would wish to show yourself and be, a little bold, shall we say...
    What about say a long row of parked vehicles on my side of the road, on a very very gradual left hand bend. Yes, it's for me to give way to oncoming, but maybe I've started my maneuver, something then comes into view, there's no where for me to come back in, and the better option would be to be bold, come right out, stand proud and give the vibes, 'I've started so I'll finish, I'm coming through' .... That sort of thing!


  11. #27
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    Fair enough Giles I understand your point, I would personally be very careful doing it as some driver really do not give a flying feck about bikers. I've actually witnessed an accident (biker and pedestrian walking between stationery traffic), and a van driver didnt stop - just stuck his fat fecking head out the window and laughed at the biker. I tend now to treat them all as if they are that fecker.

    Rich

  12. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by retskcid View Post
    Sorry to rock the boat but I've been commuting into central London from Kent for over 12 years (all year round) and I would seriously think twice about heading into oncoming traffic. Why? Because not only have I had the odd driver swerve towards me agressively (whilst filtering close to stationery traffic - in Lewisham one incident), but I have actually had the rear indicator fecking taken off my Transalp by an oncoming lorry (one of those big pickup/dump trucks).

    This was also in Lewisham by the clock tower traffic lights, I was hanging (slightly out) to get a view from behind a coach - never again. I treat oncoming traffic with respect and as though everyone last fecking one of them hates bikers..Hopefully I'll not hit another one.

    Rich

    ps best thing I ever did (10 years ago) was an advanced riding course (Honda) taken out for two days by ex-police rider. Teach you to make progress and use every inch of the road for visability - even the other side of the road going around bends (no oncoming traffic). And defensively - I havent got sirens and blue light and a badge.

    How many of you filter down the outside of stationery traffic going into oncoming traffic? A friend of mine rides for the SEG in London and he doesnt do it if he can help it - not unless he's on his police bike.....
    I think the main original point was about either hanging right waiting to overtake or perhaps also including overtaking with oncoming cars but more lateral room???

    I like your personal experience though and that was one of the points that I was making. Once you have had a dozy twat wander towards you and obviously be oblivious to your "presence" it does make you be a lot more circumspect. i have watched cop bikes make them selves big in the face of oncoming traffic and thought "all fine and dandy on that get up!"

    When i was couriering I used to cross Highbury road every day on the Seven Sisters and at a junction a bit further on i saw a K bike with about 1/3rd missing 'cos he had left himself out with knowhere to go. Same with any traffic in an overtake. It's rarely to car you are overtaking that will kill you (unless you are the daft tractor overtaker in the vid!), it's the oncoming.

    Like cornering, you cross that white line onto "their" side only when you are f'ing sure it's OK. I use all the road but I am very respecting of "the other" side....

    I also like to remeber that my GS has two great big bits that stick out on either side of the engine and make last minute "breath in" moments more of a problem...

  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrigsby1 View Post
    When i was couriering I used to cross Highbury road every day on the Seven Sisters and at a junction a bit further on i saw a K bike with about 1/3rd missing 'cos he had left himself out with knowhere to go.

    I also like to remeber that my GS has two great big bits that stick out on either side of the engine and make last minute "breath in" moments more of a problem...

    First paragraph .... You must always have somewhere to go ... Always. Never put your 'bike anywhere your brain wasn't five seconds earlier!

    Second paragraph .... The sticky out bits don't stick out further than your handlebars do they

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    Quote Originally Posted by Micky View Post
    First paragraph .... You must always have somewhere to go ... Always. Never put your 'bike anywhere your brain wasn't five seconds earlier!

    Second paragraph .... The sticky out bits don't stick out further than your handlebars do they

    They do when yer leaning over...... keep yer feet warm though

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    Very interesting reading jn between the lines on some of these posts. There is a heavy bias towards those riding in the South East , not surprising considering where Giles works. Although what he has been saying I would wholeheartedly agree with, I do think regional differences apply as roads , traffic and attitudes alter region to region.
    For example. I live in Cornwall although I did my time in Cheshire before retiring. The traffic conditions down here are very different and require different techniques on occasion. the roads here are like few other places I know with many narrow roads where it is often neccessary to " make a presence in the face of oncomming traffic, seen or unseen. road surfaces, road markings and even driver attitudes can all vary from area to area. generally the local people love bikes and will move over when you overtake. Come the summer when we are flooded by visitors , mainly from the southeast it is tottaly different, car drivers will force you accross the centre line rather than let you pass, driving becomes much more aggressive and dangerous. I am not getting at the "visitors" their style of driving is probably required where they live. just pointing out that there are differences that one should be aware of when riding in other areas or posting comments on here

  16. #32
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    I totally agree with you Wrigsby, Micky and pastyman.

    Some drivers are definitely more aggressive towards bikers here in the South. Whereas (for example and the only place I can think of to compare), I rode from Paris down to the French GP years ago and was amazed at how the French drivers let you pass them - they actually give you space to pass them while they are in the fast lane of the m/way! If I remember correctly they put their indicators on to let you know you can pass. Fantastic attitude.

    Rich

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