Sale of Goods Act and final drives
- Thread starter sven
- Start date
Elaine Page & Barbara Dickson sang that
I dont remember them singing 'DICKHEAD'?
The point that should be raised is that final drives SHOULD NOT fail within the first 12 months or say 10,000 miles, they shouldn't fail in the first 2 years or even 3 years.
They don't in cars or on Japanese bikes so why do they fail on BMW's other than if there is a design fault or there not built correctly or use substandard parts. Perhaps the real problem is the Paralever arm arrangement, I wonder if they used a twin sided swinging arm supporting the bevel at both sides this would happen.
If Ford or VW had as high a proportion of Focus or Golf final drives failing there would be hell on it would no doubt be all over the press and on Watchdog on the TV and something would be done about it.
They don't in cars or on Japanese bikes so why do they fail on BMW's other than if there is a design fault or there not built correctly or use substandard parts. Perhaps the real problem is the Paralever arm arrangement, I wonder if they used a twin sided swinging arm supporting the bevel at both sides this would happen.
If Ford or VW had as high a proportion of Focus or Golf final drives failing there would be hell on it would no doubt be all over the press and on Watchdog on the TV and something would be done about it.
Stevie73
Registered user
The problem isn't the final drives. It's the fact that GS's are ridden by fat bastids that load 300 kilos of camping gear on em for one night...
The problem isn't the final drives. It's the fact that GS's are ridden by fat bastids that load 300 kilos of camping gear on em for one night...
Could be something in that
Two F/D fails I'm aware of were both due to shall we say "Operator Error" 1st had a minor oil leak into the paralever, it was ignored and the drive oil topped up occasionally, inevitably a lengthy trip was undertaken the oil leak forgotten about until the drive ran dry and failed, all BMW's fault of course
2nd, the drive shaft was seized, it appeared to have been like that from new, eventually the increased shocking into the final drive caused the pinion bearing to fail, You could claim this was down to BMW as it appeared the shaft had been seized from new but good maintenance would have picked it long before the F/D failed at around 30K It is common to see seized drive shafts on 1100/1150, worth checking
Could be something in that
Two F/D fails I'm aware of were both due to shall we say "Operator Error" 1st had a minor oil leak into the paralever, it was ignored and the drive oil topped up occasionally, inevitably a lengthy trip was undertaken the oil leak forgotten about until the drive ran dry and failed, all BMW's fault of course
2nd, the drive shaft was seized, it appeared to have been like that from new, eventually the increased shocking into the final drive caused the pinion bearing to fail, You could claim this was down to BMW as it appeared the shaft had been seized from new but good maintenance would have picked it long before the F/D failed at around 30K It is common to see seized drive shafts on 1100/1150, worth checking
What do you mean by seized drive shaft? Seems like something you wouldn't be able to ride with...
The drive shaft is in two parts, which are splined, it is designed to move, to shorten and lengthen as the F/D pivots on its pivot pins and general suspension movement, if seized somethings goto give and the shaft tends to ride over the front pinion spline clip or the gearbox out put spline clip or both, but this still increases the shocking to the drive or into the gearbox, it is best (IMO) to check you shaft is not seized, check on this site "Driveshaft seized"
The seized condition is often caused by a plastic like paint that the short drive shaft sections spines have been coated with, I guess its to protect the spline until assembly and is supposed to be cleaned off before assembly, It's tough stuff and Steve at Scrimmager's recommended using a Stanley knife to get the stuff off, which worked for me.
OK, thanks for clearing that up
It would be very interesting to find out how many 1200's/ 1150's were sold in the UK and what proportion have suffered failures for what ever reason at low mileages.
Okay so a bad batch of bearings could cause a problem for a limited number of bikes in a production run but when the failures which are very well documented start just after the first 1200 GS's were released in 2004 and continue on 2010 models which they appear to be doing there IS a problem with the design.
Plus the 1150's were in the same boat during their production run.
Thing is that the single sided Guzzis which use the same design were suffering high failure rates at one time (the larger bearing is the same item).
But I've never heard through the trade of any Japanese bikes with shaft drive suffering from bevel box bearing failures. I know from our local Yamaha dealer that the Super Tenere was developed with a single sided swinging arm but for some reason near the end of development it was decided to go with a twin sided arm ??
Okay so a bad batch of bearings could cause a problem for a limited number of bikes in a production run but when the failures which are very well documented start just after the first 1200 GS's were released in 2004 and continue on 2010 models which they appear to be doing there IS a problem with the design.
Plus the 1150's were in the same boat during their production run.
Thing is that the single sided Guzzis which use the same design were suffering high failure rates at one time (the larger bearing is the same item).
But I've never heard through the trade of any Japanese bikes with shaft drive suffering from bevel box bearing failures. I know from our local Yamaha dealer that the Super Tenere was developed with a single sided swinging arm but for some reason near the end of development it was decided to go with a twin sided arm ??
I had a 2007 GSA replaced, 12,000 miles and the bevel box went, got fixed, and the new one leaked. I threw my toys out the pram!
BMW replaced the whole bike, the best I could come up with was I wanted different colour!!
Wind out of sails or what!!! Mind it was just on the 08 model change and I'd bought a few bikes from the dealer,skywalker
Guest
Like any manufacturer I would advise against taking them on.
There will only ever be one winner and it 'aint Michael
There will only ever be one winner and it 'aint Michael
The 1200 shaft is one piece
Yes I know
but the post you have taken the quote from is refering to 1100/1150's #45/skywalker
Guest
Personally I think its an oil quantity & design issue.
Think about the stuation re pinion bearing failure. Oil level quantity intially reduced to combat problem of oil leaking out of right hand seal. Intial cost to redesign rear axle with breather in it prohibative until next financial budget allows this. Low & behold from late 2010 we have a redesigned rear axle with breather in it. Rear disc carrier also redesigned. If it was Japanese this would have been sorted long ago.With a 180ml oil capacity without the crownwheel assembly in place the oil level comes up to the bottom of the right axle seal. Given the mass of the crownwheel assembly this still only gives the pinion bearing a semi splash feed. Scrimmenger's recommend 220ml.
The crownwheel bearing's undergone 3 part number changes which points to changes in spec. The bearing still lives outside the oil in the axle which leads to it living in a hostile environment despite preparatary measures which aren't sufficent.
The cost to redesign the whole axle would be astronomical and they won't do it.
Interestingly the K1600 has gone back to the design of the early K series. I wonder why!
Think about the stuation re pinion bearing failure. Oil level quantity intially reduced to combat problem of oil leaking out of right hand seal. Intial cost to redesign rear axle with breather in it prohibative until next financial budget allows this. Low & behold from late 2010 we have a redesigned rear axle with breather in it. Rear disc carrier also redesigned. If it was Japanese this would have been sorted long ago.With a 180ml oil capacity without the crownwheel assembly in place the oil level comes up to the bottom of the right axle seal. Given the mass of the crownwheel assembly this still only gives the pinion bearing a semi splash feed. Scrimmenger's recommend 220ml.
The crownwheel bearing's undergone 3 part number changes which points to changes in spec. The bearing still lives outside the oil in the axle which leads to it living in a hostile environment despite preparatary measures which aren't sufficent.
The cost to redesign the whole axle would be astronomical and they won't do it.
Interestingly the K1600 has gone back to the design of the early K series. I wonder why!
What do you mean thank god for 1150's mine had 3 major FD bearing failures, one under warranty before I got it ,they were replace again at 25,000 by a BMW dealer in the UK and lasted justover 700 miles before going again in Austria where they were again replaced and reshimmed by a BMW dealer and they were f@@@ed 1000 miles later by the time I got home. Ended up avaing to put in a brand new bevel box.
So it is not just 1200 fault
So it is not just 1200 fault
Maybe you were just unlucky
Sure they can go, but at least most of the time they're a bit easier to fix
OscarIndia
Registered user
That's weird .... I've been in the motor trade for over 20 years and that's the first time I've ever heard of that and a Barrister told you that?
Any failure? so if a window regulator fails within a 6 month period from new you are entitled to a new car are you?
Indeed - you can't ask for a new vehicle. You DO have the right to return the vehicle under the Act for a period of time, but that will only work if challenged if the failures have been either or a mix of acute or regular and if the supplier hasn't offered to make good.
Bottom line is that whilst 50k is not enough for a final drive, in motorcycle milage terms that's a few years of life and very few judges would say otherwise - unless they were complete Tossers, of course...
Had a Alfa 156 for 12 days than broke down, dealer had the car for 42 days in which time he tried to repair the car but couldn't .Alfa stayed with the dealer and I received my money back.
Same happened with a Merc , electrical problems. But eventually they pinpointed the fault, it took them 4/5 months.
In both cases ,dealers were sent a solicitors letter ( after the same fault was coming back) giving them 3 options:fix the car,refund the money or replace the car with like.
You have to give the dealer reasonable time to deal with the problem. As far as FD problems, well after 6 years and four 1200 engined bikes ,never had any problems.
Same happened with a Merc , electrical problems. But eventually they pinpointed the fault, it took them 4/5 months.
In both cases ,dealers were sent a solicitors letter ( after the same fault was coming back) giving them 3 options:fix the car,refund the money or replace the car with like.
You have to give the dealer reasonable time to deal with the problem. As far as FD problems, well after 6 years and four 1200 engined bikes ,never had any problems.
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