Motorcyclists charged over crash deaths of couple
- Thread starter Deleted account Cooperman
- Start date
tastiehastie
Registered user
I read that....tragic.
Sounds like they were all riding together and it went wrong for the couple.
So... what happened? were they riding quickly in a group or were the other four racing a car and hit them? ... that article is as clear as mud! 
I agree with Bobble
Where's the Confused smiley!
Where's the Confused smiley!
I guess they're limited about what they can say before the trial.So... what happened? were they riding quickly in a group or were the other four racing a car and hit them? ... that article is as clear as mud!
Deleted account Cooperman
Registered user
Looks like the accident was a head on collision with a car 
The outcome of this will be of interest to any of us who ride in groups, as the police have charged all the group (five other riders) with causing death by dangerous driving
The outcome of this will be of interest to any of us who ride in groups, as the police have charged all the group (five other riders) with causing death by dangerous driving
Deleted account Cooperman
Registered user
Interesting related discussion on another forum
http://www.xrv.org.uk/forums/chatter/73986-motorcyclists-charged-over-death.html
I remember the lead rider being prosecuted for the speed of the last rider - but all the group prosecuted for causing death
http://www.xrv.org.uk/forums/chatter/73986-motorcyclists-charged-over-death.html
I remember the lead rider being prosecuted for the speed of the last rider - but all the group prosecuted for causing death
There have been other cases where those "in company" with the deceased have been charged with Section 1 (causing death by dangerous). Usually it depends upon evidence of the group's manner of driving/riding preceding the incident or video evidence (if one of the riders in this case had a camera running).
There is going to have to be a substantial body or evidence if it's reliant upon witnesses alone.
It's also common these days for police to charge with the higher offence and the lesser one, leaving it to CPS to decide which is the appropriate offence to proceed with. This practice has come about mainly owing to the bereaved not being happier with the lesser offence and to try and head-off possible criticism when the finding is "only" Careless driving. The police (who are usually the only body in the process that aggrieved, grieving families have access to) can point-put that they investigated with the higher offence in mind and even went as far as to charge with it. There's a lot of umbrella opening these days.
I don't know of any cases that I can quote off-hand but I do know that this policy is seen in some quarters as the best means to discourage the tendency among some riders to gee each other-up when out in a group.
There is going to have to be a substantial body or evidence if it's reliant upon witnesses alone.
It's also common these days for police to charge with the higher offence and the lesser one, leaving it to CPS to decide which is the appropriate offence to proceed with. This practice has come about mainly owing to the bereaved not being happier with the lesser offence and to try and head-off possible criticism when the finding is "only" Careless driving. The police (who are usually the only body in the process that aggrieved, grieving families have access to) can point-put that they investigated with the higher offence in mind and even went as far as to charge with it. There's a lot of umbrella opening these days.
I don't know of any cases that I can quote off-hand but I do know that this policy is seen in some quarters as the best means to discourage the tendency among some riders to gee each other-up when out in a group.
torq
Registered user
How very tragic indeed
I would definitely be interested to understand more about the group riding responsibilities under law. None of the guys I ride with ride fast or dangerously to be honest but would be useful for future reference.
I would definitely be interested to understand more about the group riding responsibilities under law. None of the guys I ride with ride fast or dangerously to be honest but would be useful for future reference.
Simply put, you are responsible for your own actions. If you ride dangerously, the others cannot be held responsible but when a collision occurs it doesn't matter that you were not actually involved in any impact. The wording is "owing to the presence of a motor vehicle on a road......."
If as a result of that collision someone dies, then the link is made and the culpability of the rider/driver of any motor vehicle involved (meaning those which meet the above definition) will be examined.
The tricky bit is defining, or proving, that there is a link between the way that one person acted as having a material influence upon the way that another acted.
If as a result of that collision someone dies, then the link is made and the culpability of the rider/driver of any motor vehicle involved (meaning those which meet the above definition) will be examined.
The tricky bit is defining, or proving, that there is a link between the way that one person acted as having a material influence upon the way that another acted.
Exactly. And you watch the legal vultures crawl over this lot with claims for "compo" if any of the 5 are found guilty..... The outcome of this will be of interest to any of us who ride in groups, as the police have charged all the group (five other riders) with causing death by dangerous driving
I was always told never to get "pulled" out of my comfort zone by faster riders in a group. It was excellent advice.
I'm not sure why theExactly. And you watch the legal vultures crawl over this lot with claims for "compo" if any of the 5 are found guilty.
If they are indeed found to be guilty (not in any way a certainty), why shouldn't those rightfully liable to be compensated seek it?
LiquidLAN
Registered user
So if I jump off a cliff its my fault if you follow?
I'm sorry, its a very tragic accident but its hard to see many ways in which the whole group could be responsible for the actions of an individual...
The Road Traffic Act doesn't cover people jumping off of cliff's, alone or in company.
TBH I can't see how anyone driving or riding a separate bike could be deemed responsible for the death of a different rider / driver. The only way I can imagine it happening is if they were "ordered" to ride dangerously, but that's stretching the point a bit. Have any "boy racers" been charged with this offence after racing and causing a death of another "boy racer"? If they have, I've never heard of it? If you know of one, can you post a link to it because it would make "interesting" reading to anyone organising a group rideout.I'm not sure why the
Ok then - so if someone drives off a cliff - and someone else drives off the cliff behind him. Is the first driver liable. I suggest not, but it's the same principle - ie in my book each rider / driver should be responsible for his vehicle - nobody elses.The Road Traffic Act doesn't cover people jumping off of cliff's, alone or in company.
You are riding safely, another rider goes for an ill advised overtake, realises it's not on and tries to pull in alongside or immediately in front of you. You brake violently to avoid a collision with the aborting overtake machine, loose control, easier with a passenger on the back sliding into you as they loose their grip on the grab bars, the bike fish-tails and veers directly, head on into the oncoming 44 tonner.
Will that scenario do as starters?
I shall watch the forthcoming Court Case with interest..................group riding can be a minefield, especially with bikes in close quarters (more likely with sportsbike riders)
If I ride in a group................I much prefer a spread out affair and one preferably using the drop-off system
On group rides I've attended and participated in here and abroad, I've lost counts of the number of accidents that have arisen to the riders involved, from minor spills to major accidents necessitating the AirAmbulance on one occasion....................luckily no-one has died to date, however there have been some nasty breaks and other unpleasant stuff
Group Riding = Increased Potential Danger
If I ride in a group................I much prefer a spread out affair and one preferably using the drop-off system
On group rides I've attended and participated in here and abroad, I've lost counts of the number of accidents that have arisen to the riders involved, from minor spills to major accidents necessitating the AirAmbulance on one occasion....................luckily no-one has died to date, however there have been some nasty breaks and other unpleasant stuff
Group Riding = Increased Potential Danger
Forget your imagination and look at the law.
Note that there is no reference to the deceased being in or on the mechanically propelled vehicle. It is not restricted to anyone having control over a vehicle driven/ridden by another person, be they the deceased or not.
In my earlier post I said: "The tricky bit is defining, or proving, that there is a link between the way that one person acted as having a material influence upon the way that another acted."
There is plenty of precedent for cases where motorists have been successfully convicted of "Motor racing on public highways" even though there was no preordained plan to race each other. Simply the witness evidence was enough to convince the courts that their actions amounted to racing each other. The same is applicable for Dangerous Driving, the proving that the Dangerous Driving of others led to the death is a different matter and will depend upon each set of circumstances.
This case was debated at length on this very forum:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...road-death-camera-race-motorbikes-170mph.html
As in the OP's case, Bowden was charged with Section 1. IIRC, plea bargain reduced this to Section 2 (Dangerous Driving).
Your analogy is as facile as it was when offered earlier. No-one is suggesting that merely following another vehicle is sufficient to warrant such a charge, no matter what the outcome. It's all about the circumstances, the manner in which the vehicles are driven and whether or not their actions "fall far short of the standard reasonably expected of a careful and competent driver".
There is no reason why anyone on a ride-out should worry, as long as their behaviour stays within the law, or at least doesn't stray into the definition of Dangerous Driving.
Deleted account Cooperman
Registered user
Dawn raids were carried out to detain five males that had been riding with the couple at the time of the fatal accident on August 25th 2010. North Yorkshire Police are charging the men due to their association, or joint enterprise, with riding in the group prior to the accident, they will appear in Selby Magistrates Court 31st March 2011.
This is not the first instance of riders being charged, even though not directly involved in an incident. Legislation is already in place for a lead rider to be charged for speeding offences comitted by others in a group.
tastiehastie
Registered user
That is crazy, It's not the lead riders hand on the throttle of the guy following.
Does that mean as I was following the car in front it was his fault I was speeding....
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