which gear to stop in

Hi everyone
Sorry if this sounds like a daft question. My wife has started lessons for her part 2 on her own 125 bike and I'm going out with her to practice while we can.
I'm at pains not to teach her my bad habits and try to practice what she is being taught but one thing is puzzling me and I wondered if this is normal these days. On approach to junctions, give ways etc she has been told to drop through the gears and select 1st about 10ft from the give way line at the junction then slow ride up to the line. Myself I rarely use 1st other than to pull away and usually approach the last few feet from a junction in 2nd. If I need to stop I would stop in 2nd then select 1 st ready to pull away. (I realize some junctions, say , one at the top of a hill , this approach would be treat differently but in general would you stop in 2nd or crawl the line in first.) . 1st gear on EN125 is painfully low. Quite happy to be told I've got it wrong I just wondered if any instructors out there would care to comment.

It's a long time since I was teaching, but personally, the best way forward (imho!!) is to teach new riders a sense of flexibility and adaptability. If it was me, I'd take your wife to a big dissused car park and practise practise practise two different ways of stopping i/- Brmmmmm, down a gear, Brmmmm, down a gear, brmmm down a gear .... roll up in slow control mode. And ii/ Drive towards it, brake, clutch in, click click click, first.

Flexibility is good, and its easy to think all noobies are daft and lack a sense of ....'on this occasion I'll do it this way'.

They need the tools first, so you do need to muscle memory the brmmm brmmmm brmmm and the click click click !! But then, out on the road you can ride, stop, have a chat and a debrief, and discuss, 'Can you see on that junction, you had a good view and the gear at a time thing worked well there .... but on this junction, it seemed to work better just getting up to it and clicking down to first. 'can you see how you can do a mix match of both .... Brmmm a gear, and click click the last two?' 'What do you think?? Which works best for you, do you see the two different ways of coming down to first, and how they both work well, sometimes in different scenarios..?'

Another good excercise to teach her, is (back in the car park..) get two cones, jumpers, whatever, and build an imaginary say, yellow box junction. Get your wife to approach it, and as she gets to the first cone, she must travel to the second cone as slow as she can. (first gear, slip the clutch.) Reach the second cone and drive off, up the gears, round in a big, big circle and approaching the first cone again at speed in say fourth. Get her to do it quicker and quicker, untill it's almost like an emergency stop, but keep moving very slowly. The transition from speed to slow and back to speed is what youre practising. So sometimes that's brmmm brmmm brmmm, and sometimes click click click, and sometimes a hybrid of the two.

Get her to understand flexibility at this early stage, rather than being too prescriptive!! That will teach her flexibility, which is important.

Having said all that ..... I'm not aufait with the DSA test stuff. One of the instructors might come along in a minute and say whoa there .... this is what they want .... (Although my experience of good examiners, is that they want to see a good all round package ...).

edit!! I've just re-read your post, and have to say, I never stop in second. I sometimes do the last yard in neutral, but if i'm not in neutral as my foot hits the floor I'm in first. Always!!

My 2p worth is that on a 125 you would always select 1st gear because it might not give enough pep in 2nd JJH

I always select 1st before stopping. I slow the last few feet with a bit of rear brake and put the left foot down only. The rear brake can then be used to hold the bike on a slope and as a drag against the clutch to control slow riding if necessary.

If I was to stop in second I would then have to do the Hendon shuffle to change gear while stationary.

I can gauge how controlled my stop was by how quickly I have to put my left foot down.

There are obviously different ways of doing things but this is the way for me.

However if I have a pillion on the back I tend to put both feet down because it can be I bit off putting for the pillion if the bike is lent over whilst stationary.

Examiners will look for 1st gear selected at a stop.

Also, being new, she mighty forget to change once stopped and try to pull away in 2nd.

FWIW, I always brake down to 1st before stopping.

I do it differently depending on the circumstances, sometimes stop in second and put into neutral, othertimes in first if I need to keep moving forward on the clutch or on a slope. Can be left or right foot down as well. It can be any combination, whatever seems right at the time, whether I'm stopping or not, camber, pillion etc.

mr badger said:

Examiners will look for 1st gear selected at a stop.

Also, being new, she mighty forget to change once stopped and try to pull away in 2nd.

FWIW, I always brake down to 1st before stopping.

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Would that be basic test examiners or IAM bods?

Thanks for the replies so far
Its beginning to look like its back to school for me then. Amazing how you can pick up bad habits and not realize anything is amiss. GS or Bust referred to the hendon shuffle. Never heard it called that but I'm guilty as charged.
Giles thanks for the practice advise , will try that over the next few days.
Your right about the muscle memory bit. I'm sure she get's nervous and tense then starts over thinking every move and her riding suffers.
Peter

petera said:

Your right about the muscle memory bit. I'm sure she get's nervous and tense then starts over thinking every move and her riding suffers.
Peter

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Absolutely. If you can muscle memory a few ideas, repeat them over and over again, soon enough she'll be coming into a set of lights or a roundabout and doing stuff instinctively rather than thinking about it. Then of course it frees up concentration that can be used else where ...


One more thing that's a good learner rider lesson ... . Every new rider stalls in some gear or another, and then cant find neutral or first.
Without moving, from first, engine running, you'll be lucky if can get your gear box into third before it just clicks nothing and gets 'lost'. "Peeeete....help ...it won't get into neutral...."

Show her (get her to..) jiggle the throttle / clutch / gearlever while the motors running and work the gear box up to 6th and back again without actually moving forward an inch. Ok, it makes an 'orrible clunking noise, esp if you give it too many revs, and mechanically may not be great for your gearbox, but it teaches the new rider that if they've stalled and they are stuck in say 4th, with a little play on the revs, a bit of movement with the clutch you can work your way back down to first whilst stationary. Really useful for new riders and eases the panic of getting lost in the gears ...

What anyone here advises may not be the important thing as far as passing her test is concerned.

I'd suggest sticking to what she is taught as her instruction is probably aimed at teaching her to pass the test. Set about better practices once she has passed.

MikeP said:

What anyone here advises may not be the important thing as far as passing her test is concerned.

I'd suggest sticking to what she is taught as her instruction is probably aimed at teaching her to pass the test. Set about better practices once she has passed.

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Absolutely

I've spent over nine hours with two numpty CBT students today, who still can't be guaranteed to arrive at a junction in first gear

One was a police woman, she failed to gain her CBT today due to general utter numptiness and is coming back for another full day with me on wednesday.

The main issue with students not arriving in first gear is that regardless of what gear they think they're approaching the last few metres they need to keep the clutch in and tap the gear lever down more than once. I insist on twice as a minimum, to make sure.

Pulling out into a junction in 2nd gear inevitably causes a stall in potentially dangerous situations so is not an option

As more experienced riders I'm sure we've pulled out in 2nd or even 3rd at some time but immediately compensate with more revs and clutch slip, a new rider can't be expected to rely on this 'skill'.

giles lamb said:

Show her (get her to..) jiggle the throttle / clutch / gearlever while the motors running and work the gear box up to 6th and back again without actually moving forward an inch. Ok, it makes an 'orrible clunking noise, esp if you give it too many revs, and mechanically may not be great for your gearbox, but it teaches the new rider that if they've stalled and they are stuck in say 4th, with a little play on the revs, a bit of movement with the clutch you can work your way back down to first whilst stationary. Really useful for new riders and eases the panic of getting lost in the gears ...

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We insist on this technique following an emergency/controlled stop, even if you 'think' you got 1st.

Just got back in from our first practice session. Went quite well and her riding was definately more in control coming up to juctions. Thanks for all the teaching tips much appreciated. Keep them coming. Knowing how to ride is one skill but teaching it to others , and how to pass a the test , is so different.
Thanks
Peter

petera said:

On approach to junctions, give ways etc she has been told to drop through the gears and select 1st about 10ft from the give way line at the junction then slow ride up to the line.

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Just reread your post and it sounds as though there's been a misunderstanding.

On approaching the junction in 2nd gear.
1st gear is selected but the clutch is held in.....NOT RELEASED for the final 'slower ride/approach
ie. so coast the last few feet whilst tapping the gear lever again to make double sure it's in first

That is what her instructor is saying

Yup. As above. Again, think if you really are considering 'give way' junctions... we want to go ...if it's safe.
The lights that have just changed to amber and the Stop sign - well, we have to stop. But we don't want to stop at every give way.

Timolgra said:

Just reread your post and it sounds as though there's been a misunderstanding.

On approaching the junction in 2nd gear.
1st gear is selected but the clutch is held in.....NOT RELEASED for the final 'slower ride/approach
ie. so coast the last few feet whilst tapping the gear lever again to make double sure it's in first

That is what her instructor is saying

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I know bikes are different to cars but I was told 1st gear is a pulling away gear not a slowing down one so i've used this with riding and as Timolgra says put it in 1st with clutch in when cruising to the junction even though this may mean you dont have control of the bike......... Trust what the instructor knows after all he/she should be up to date on the do's and donts...

Use of Rear Brake.

I was told (by a well respected advanced trainer) to use the rear brake only below 30mph, slowing (particularly to a stop) is much smoother as by using the rear brake and not the front you are not loading the front suspension, therefore it doesn't compress and then rebound. The bike stays more stable. Works well for me anyway.

HTH