ROSPA Vs IAM

I very much believe, that having your own style is a good thing. It's wrong to sterilse a rider and turn him into a clone. And one of the best ways of learning, is to join that club (whichever you choose) and to go on a few rides and start identifying some good riders. Hone in on them and take little pieces of what you like. That is most definitely the best way.

I have done that here in my environment. I've taken the best bits from the old sweats that have either already gone or are just about to retire.

One guy looks like he's asleep. He is so relaxed when he rides. I like that! Another guy just retired was seriously, seriously quick. So in the early days I used to pick his brains.

"How come we're on the same bike, but I have to brake and you're not?"

"I accelerate harder than you coming out the corner - but because I'm on the gas harder and faster, I'm not on it for as long as you - I shut off sooner and I'm floating towards whatever the next hazard is, but you're on the gas for that second or two longer because you've accelerated a tad slower in the first place..."

Aha, so I'll steal the asleep bit, and I'll steal the very hard acceleration but for a shorter time idea, Ummmm who else has little hidden gems about them ........

And so the circle of motorcycle riding continues....

Now the newest Guys say to me ..... "Can I pick yer brains ......... "

giles lamb said:

Ummmm who else has little hidden gems about them ........

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I steal ideas from guy's in wheel chairs who can no longer ride.

I steal the idea that riding on the road is only one small element of becoming a complete motorcyclist.

Timolgra said:

I steal ideas from guy's in wheel chairs who can no longer ride.

I steal the idea that riding on the road is only one small element of becoming a complete motorcyclist.

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Can't argue with that !! Only been off roading the last three or four years I suppose and You're quite right, opens your eyes to a new world and is brilliant for riding skills ....

I've got some strong views about both of the main organisations.

Neither are interested in your safety, but are the sort of personalities that are forever attempting to 'be the best', but without any clear definition of what 'best' is.

For example what exactly is 'advanced riding'?

Police use Roadcraft as a system of riding, which 99% of riders will almost do automatically. When speed goes up, this is important, but for non-police riders it's immaterial.

For me, it's about looking & understanding what lies ahead. I could do plenty of that on-line with Youtube etc & save loads of money for petrol to put some solo riding in.

They will always bicker about the minutae, and life's too short for those types.

The Reverend said:

I've got some strong views about both of the main organisations.

Neither are interested in your safety, but are the sort of personalities that are forever attempting to 'be the best', but without any clear definition of what 'best' is.

For example what exactly is 'advanced riding'?

Police use Roadcraft as a system of riding, which 99% of riders will almost do automatically. When speed goes up, this is important, but for non-police riders it's immaterial.

For me, it's about looking & understanding what lies ahead. I could do plenty of that on-line with Youtube etc & save loads of money for petrol to put some solo riding in.

They will always bicker about the minutae, and life's too short for those types.

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Sorry Rev but i totally disagree with that statement. 99% of riders who have never been exposed to Roadcraft will have no idea of the principles. The lines taken around corners felt totally alien to me when I first started looking into it. Most riders I see on the roads hug the kerbs on left handers and are almost on the whites on right handers. This clearly highlights a lack of understanding of positioning for sight and gears towards the racing lines on the track.....

Roadcraft - is this a good investment then?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Motorcycle-Roadcraft-Police-Handbook-Motorcycling/dp/011341143X

Ross Dean said:

Roadcraft - is this a good investment then?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Motorcycle-Roadcraft-Police-Handbook-Motorcycling/dp/011341143X

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The bible of advanced riding.....

The Reverend said:

Neither are interested in your safety, but are the sort of personalities that are forever attempting to 'be the best', but without any clear definition of what 'best' is....

They will always bicker about the minutae, and life's too short for those types.

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I do not care about their agenda, just have they got something useful to me?

My mate has raced at high level, won chamiponships, set lap records and now coaches some of the worlds fastest riders, his agenda is only aimed at going f***** fast, this does not mean he cannot teach me anything useful for the road.

Track teachings are also useful, bike control works the same both on and off track, it is not like the laws of physics alter on the track (although some riders make it appear that way)

I read both of the twist books and watched the DVD before attending the school, now you would say that the school must be a waste of time for me after getting the book / DVD (and being extra stupid by not getting it FOC from the Internet) however the School taught me a huge amount, despite me having read and tried to apply the concepts without any coaching, once on the school with some guidance I learned a lot.

On the road novices tend to head for the inside of a turn, funnily enough they do the same on the track, in both instances they end up leaned over further than they would like and find themselves running wide on the exit, often chopping the throttle, reaching for the brakes or looking at where they are worried about going before going directly there! (the hedge / armco / gravel trap / oncoming Scammel)

Bikesafe / IAM / ROSPA / Keith Code are all different, all with staff who may have different Agenda's and interests, however they all teach ways of not doing this.

Do novices follow the rules of Roadcraft? I do not think so, I see many riders out and about "low lining" into corners, chopping the throttle mid turn and being on / off the brakes as if they are sending out a Mayday message (probably not a bad idea when riding like that). This is just one simple aspect of riding a bike that many riders really do not understand.

If you have managed to rach a higher plane of motorcycle control with no training a bit of time on Youtube then that is great, I think others do need a bit more help.

I also believe many observers do actually care a lot about peoples safety, I take my hat off to those who give up a lot of their own time (and spend their own money) to help others.

Some of them probably would "do my head in" if I spent too long with them and I dare say I would not see eye to eye with them all, but I do not care why they do what they do, if they can give me something useful then I will take it - and thank them very muchly as well.

SE Rider said:

The bible of advanced riding.....

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Okay - I just bought a second hand one on Amazon and will give it a go.

I agree with many of the reservations stated in this thread about the organisational aspects of 'advanced riding' but I do get the point about improving my skills - I don't need another certificate but I do need to be a better rider ... and I say that with over 50,000 miles under my belt since passing my test some 5 years ago without an accident ... so far and not including falling off the bike while off-roading and while just getting on/off it (those GS's require skill and experience to mount and dismount with full luggage on a camber!).

For me the most important thing remains watching other road users and assuming they are all really rubbish at road craft. They are not, of course, but its best to play it safe.

giles lamb said:

What you want (in my opinion!!) is a good club. To me, it wouldn't really matter too much if it was IAM or Rospa, what's important is that you actually enjoy it.

That's what you need. Find a mentor / observer who is good, who you get on well with and who ignites your fire

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This is good advice. If you don't "get on" with an observer allocated to you (assuming the particular group works the one observer to one associate until test ready routine) Then ask for another one more in tune with you. Last resort, change to a different club (only a club fee would be the cost)

It does depend on the club a lot of the time but with changes in Observer training methods which are ongoing, it should be getting easier to find a "good Observer" to suit your needs.

Yes, the aim is to get you through the IAM/Rospa test, but that's only the start really, hopefully you meet few people, with the same riding ability as yourself and with a will to survive while on the bike, this does help a lot with keeping the skills you want fresh for many years to come.

You can go further and train to become an observer yourself, then you can help others who may need some advice as well.

hth
\v/

Ross Dean said:

Okay - I just bought a second hand one on Amazon and will give it a go.

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It's not an easy book ro read in isolation (unless you want to use it as a cure for insomnia) but it can be a good book to use as a cross reference tool. Bear in mind it wasn't given out to riders to go and learn but it is used as a tool alongside a course.

There's also a good reason the chapter on the mental approach to riding is the first chapter.

Maybe try to get hold of the lasest copy of the IAM's 'How to be a better rider' as well as that's a little more reader-friendly.

wheelnut said:

It's not an easy book ro read in isolation (unless you want to use it as a cure for insomnia) but it can be a good book to use as a cross reference tool. Bear in mind it wasn't given out to riders to go and learn but it is used as a tool alongside a course.

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Spot on.

(We had to learn dozens and dozens of definitions off by heart for an exam at the beginning of every course, but other than that, it was exactly as you say, dragged out of a pannier at the side of the road over a fag, when a moot point came up...)

Roynie and I started with IAM before we left the UK. Never got around to taking the test, but would agree with the general concensus that any and all 'advanced' training is a good thing.

The most memorable day in my IAM experience was actually a 'Machine Control' day, which was spent (with around 60 others) learning how to manoeuvre our bikes manually and at slow speed around a school tennis court. To gain the confidence to push, pull, steer and balance a bike, while not actually sitting on it, was worth the membership fee in itself. That we also found the confidence to ride up and down steps, sit on the tank, stand on the seat, and a dozen other daft manoeuvres, made for a truly memorable day's voyage of discovery! Bravo LAM. Thanks to you all. Only sorry that I never got to complete the training/take the test.

I took the IAM training and test some years ago through Thames Vale Group.For me it has been incredibly worthwhile and has definitely saved my arse many times on both two and four wheels.

I liked the fact that the group consisted of all types of rider and they segregated into speed and experience groups for ride outs.

Someone earlier said that any training is better than none and I would certainly vote for AIM as better than most. It certainly doesn't train the fun element out of riding,I ridemore swiftly now but with a much better level of control and forethought.

mrsroynie said:

The most memorable day in my IAM experience was actually a 'Machine Control' day, which was spent (with around 60 others) learning how to manoeuvre our bikes manually and at slow speed around a school tennis court. To gain the confidence to push, pull, steer and balance a bike, while not actually sitting on it, was worth the membership fee in itself. That we also found the confidence to ride up and down steps, sit on the tank, stand on the seat, and a dozen other daft manoeuvres, made for a truly memorable day's voyage of discovery! Bravo LAM. Thanks to you all. Only sorry that I never got to complete the training/take the test.

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This too was the most memorable day of doing IAM for me. Predominantly because although I was supposed to be a student and was on one of the bikes least suited to gymkhana, I was considerably better at it than everyone else, including the senior observers. Before I look like a completely egotistical tool, I should point out that as a relative n00b to riding at the time, I was way down the list in terms of road riding ability, definitely somewhere near the bottom of the pack back then.

The reason for the difference ability wasn't any particular gift/talent on my part, but rather that unlike the rest of them, I had practised it a lot. I was the only person young enough to of had to do this as part of their test and to have ever received formal instruction in cone drills. Doing full lock figure of eights and u-turns was second nature to me by then. A lot of them were of the generation where they were more comfortable getting off their bike and wheeling it around. I remember a test in a bike mag around the same time revealed the exact same thing: A chap who had been riding about 18 months IIRC, beat all the guys who had been riding over a decade, in the fast group at track days, etc.

If you like this sort of thing and consider it an area of your riding you'd like to develop, check this out. These guys essentially teach the system used by the Japanese police riders in cone tests on those crazy youtube videos!

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I've done IAM and there are some silly stylistic things they get hung up on, like they want you to ride a sportsbike as though it has tourer ergo and pretend your sintered pad sportsbike is actually a drum braked relic from the 70s that needs the brakes to be dried every time it gets a bit damp. Whilst some groups have a more realistic attitude to speed, others bust you for minor speeding that police would always disregard unless you were doing something stupid or conditions were pore. All those silly things were minor irritations and quickly dumped the moment I passed the test. They don't mean the rest of things they teach are nonsense and not worth learning. I will do ROSPA at some point. The impression I get from people I know who've done both, is that ROSPA bronze/silver is comparable to IAM and Gold is a slightly higher standard.

I don't like ROSPA as an organisation and as others have said, their anti-speeding and general anti-bike propoganda grate, but I think I can still learn something from them.

Pick one: Either will be better than neither!

IAMs cats can't read

My 2p - I've passed the IAM and got a Gold ROSPA pass in October last year. I'd say that in my experience the ROSPA test is more stringent but it will vary according to examiner. Both organisations at the top piss me off with their reading material but our local IAM group organises some fun rideouts and the leader of the motorcycle section has his head screwed on, rides fast and rides well and you always learn...
Either is a good option as far as I'm concerned

Recently looked at both and just passed my IAM. I really think it depends on your area. My local group of the IAM (HBAM) very active and got along great with my observer. Had an observed ride to Wales from North London! When compared to ROSPA there wasn't a group near me so the decision is easy. IAM is not perfect for example I think there should be a retest at some point to keep your qualification. But at the end of the day it is the relationship between your observer and the local group.

karlp said:

I only know three people that have passed the IAM. - and two of those are complete idiots on the road.

Passing on blind hump back hills
Coming out of junctions without looking
All over the road
No consideration for other riders


So much so that I have even asked them - is this what the IAM have taught them

If so then I am not interested.

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The idea of teaching the Police system of car/motorcycle control is to reconstruct one's driving to accord to a system. This approach will stand one in good stead for a lifetime.
If one enters into the training thinking that one will add a few choice "advanced" tips here and there to one's existing driving style, then one will either not bother to take the test at all (up to 50% apparently) or fail or just pass. They will then go on to ride/drive as described above.

Realistic view is that both have the same objectives in mind. Its the way the individual groups give the training that varies.
HOWEVER, the IAM is a one shot pass/fail test but the ROSPA test is graded fail/bronze/silver/gold. and you get retested every 3 years.