full lock slow speed turns

Wreford Miles · Jul 16, 2013

Timolgra said:
What you appear to completely misunderstand is the importance of being able to handle the bike at slow speed 'before' going on the road and that some exercises generate wider skills other than simply your gripe of the U turn.

thats what I was thinking...

if U turns and the logic behind doing one is to difficult to grasp best you stay of a bike...

IMO one of the biggest steps to doing a U turn is confidence and always look where you want to go, and we all know to many riders wipe themselves out because at a critical time they are found wanting in these two areas.

BBB61 · Jul 16, 2013

Timolgra said:
What you appear to completely misunderstand is the importance of being able to handle the bike at slow speed 'before' going on the road and that some exercises generate wider skills other than simply your gripe of the U turn.

Of course it depends how long it takes you to teach a U turn

Timolgra,

I have been teaching CBT since it started in 1991 so I fully understand the importance of being able to handle a bike at slow speed before going on the road. There are plenty of ways of doing that without including the U turn in the syllabus, which you as an instructor would be fully aware of. It seems you are showing a lack of understanding at what is involved in teaching someone the basics, as the U turn is not what many would regard as a basic manoeuvre. Or maybe it is just another example of your "let's take a pop for the sake of it" mentality.

BBB61 · Jul 16, 2013

Wreford Miles said:
thats what I was thinking...

if U turns and the logic behind doing one is to difficult to grasp best you stay of a bike...

IMO one of the biggest steps to doing a U turn is confidence and always look where you want to go, and we all know to many riders wipe themselves out because at a critical time they are found wanting in these two areas.

The point about CBT is getting someone trained to a safe basic level, to get them started, and the U turn has no place in the syllabus. It is something that should come along after CBT when a rider has gained a bit more confidence.

Wreford Miles · Jul 16, 2013

BBB61 said:
The point about CBT is getting someone trained to a safe basic level, to get them started, and the U turn has no place in the syllabus. It is something that should come along after CBT when a rider has gained a bit more confidence.

I was not thinking about a CBT - just refering to the U-Turn as a simple, low risk and good task to help riders gain important control and mental skills and maybe highlight early those that struggle with confidence and the need to always look where you want to go before those weakness shows in a life threating situation.

If a rider is struggling getting their head around doing U-Turns then IMO suggesting they stay off the road until they can is the best advise you can give them...

The only reason you cannot do a U-Turn is because your head is not thinking it through right and the next time that happens could be as they enter a left hand bend and run wide into the traffic when they really did not need to do that.

There are a lot of kids out there without Dad's that would be even more distraught if they new the main reason their Dad was no longer around was because he did not have the confidence or metal disicipline when it was needed

Nutty · Jul 16, 2013

Wreford Miles said:
I was not thinking about a CBT - just refering to the U-Turn as a simple, low risk and good task to help riders gain important control and mental skills and maybe highlight early those that struggle with confidence and the need to always look where you want to go before those weakness shows in a life threating situation.

If a rider is struggling getting their head around doing U-Turns then IMO suggesting they stay off the road until they can is the best advise you can give them...

The only reason you cannot do a U-Turn is because your head is not thinking it through right and the next time that happens could be as they enter a left hand bend and run wide into the traffic when they really did not need to do that.

There are a lot of kids out there without Dad's that would be even more distraught if they new the main reason their Dad was no longer around was because he did not have the confidence or metal disicipline when it was needed

I agree. There's several no right turn junctions followed by very small roundabouts in my neck of the woods, so you have to ride down to the roundabout, and effectively do a U-Turn if you wanted to originally turn right.

If you are riding on the road, you HAVE to have the skills to be able to do a U-Turn, unless you always look for a bigger roundabout or side road to turn round in, but that's just silly. :rob

Wreford Miles · Jul 16, 2013

The Nutty GSER said:
I agree. There's several no right turn junctions followed by very small roundabouts in my neck of the woods, so you have to ride down to the roundabout, and effectively do a U-Turn if you wanted to originally turn right.

If you are riding on the road, you HAVE to have the skills to be able to do a U-Turn, unless you always look for a bigger roundabout or side road to turn round in, but that's just silly.

What you're describing here requires a diffrent skill, for the above you need all round observation and timing skills so that you can make that cheeky right turn and have it completed before others even realised that you had considered it and off course do it having made that last minute observed judgement that no one was there to nick you.

Nutty · Jul 16, 2013

Wreford Miles said:
What you're describing here requires a diffrent skill, for the above you need all round observation and timing skills so that you can make that cheeky right turn and have it completed before others even realised that you had considered it and off course do it having made that last minute observed judgement that no one was there to nick you.

I couldn't possibly condone that sort of behaviour

Timolgra · Jul 16, 2013

BBB61 said:
Timolgra,

I have been teaching CBT since it started in 1991 so I fully understand the importance of being able to handle a bike at slow speed before going on the road. There are plenty of ways of doing that without including the U turn in the syllabus, which you as an instructor would be fully aware of.

It seems you are showing a lack of understanding at what is involved in teaching someone the basics, as the U turn is not what many would regard as a basic manoeuvre. Or maybe it is just another example of your "let's take a pop for the sake of it" mentality.

Well come on then, which is it? :confused:

Either I am fully aware or I show a lack of understanding? Of course for some misguided reason you actually think I'm having a pop

Go back to the start of the thread which is what the question's all about, see my input....perhaps thinking's also changed since 1991 but I'll stand by my previous post.
Yes, of course there's plenty of exercises to develop slow speed handling, the U turn being just one of them.

You can argue til the cows come home the relevance of many requirements by the DSA for both the CBT and DAS and as you'll know it's up to each instructor and pupil to be creative in achieving those goals for real life riding.

:beerjug:

BBB61 · Jul 16, 2013

Wreford Miles said:
I was not thinking about a CBT - just refering to the U-Turn as a simple, low risk and good task to help riders gain important control and mental skills and maybe highlight early those that struggle with confidence and the need to always look where you want to go before those weakness shows in a life threating situation.

I was talking about the U turn in the context of CBT Wreford.

Wreford Miles said:
If a rider is struggling getting their head around doing U-Turns then IMO suggesting they stay off the road until they can is the best advise you can give them...

Why should a rider stay off the road if they can't do a U turn? I am sure there are thousands of motorcyclists out there who can't do U turns but that doesn't mean they are not capable riders.

Wreford Miles said:
The only reason you cannot do a U-Turn is because your head is not thinking it through right and the next time that happens could be as they enter a left hand bend and run wide into the traffic when they really did not need to do that.

It's not that simple and neither is comparing the U turn with running wide on a left hand bend.

Wreford Miles said:
There are a lot of kids out there without Dad's that would be even more distraught if they new the main reason their Dad was no longer around was because he did not have the confidence or metal disicipline when it was needed

And you think spending time teaching a u turn is more important than taking someone out and showing them how to corner properly, how to look at the vanishing point and how to position themselves correctly as they approach a corner? I know which one out of the two I would rather spend more time on teaching.

BBB61 · Jul 16, 2013

Timolgra said:
Well come on then, which is it?

Either I am fully aware or I show a lack of understanding? Of course for some misguided reason you actually think I'm having a pop

Your history on this forum shows that I am not misguided.

Timolgra said:
Go back to the start of the thread which is what the question's all about, see my input....perhaps thinking's also changed since 1991 but I'll stand by my previous post.
Yes, of course there's plenty of exercises to develop slow speed handling, the U turn being just one of them.

Do you think the U turn is a basic manoeuvre that should be part of the CBT syllabus?

Timolgra said:
You can argue til the cows come home the relevance of many requirements by the DSA for both the CBT and DAS and as you'll know it's up to each instructor and pupil to be creative in achieving those goals for real life riding.

But it doesn't stop us as a collective group from lobbying the DSA about some of their less worthy changes though.

Ogmios · Jul 16, 2013

The value of U Turns in the test;
Combines machine handling skills and hazard awareness / hazard management and risk assessment all in one manouevre (sp?).
The Examiner has the candidate focussed on ONE task - the turn.
But the candidate must demonstrate, using a recipe of skills taught by their instructor, ALL the skills combined, into a display of competence and confidence,
Just like Real World riding.
~~
Og

Timolgra · Jul 16, 2013

BBB61 said:
Your history on this forum shows that I am not misguided.

Strangley, you're user name isn't one I recognise. Have I pissed you off in a past life or something, perhaps your ex plod?

Do you think the U turn is a basic manoeuvre that should be part of the CBT syllabus?

Yes, but not necessarily to a high degree of proficiency, that can be sorted later

But it doesn't stop us as a collective group from lobbying the DSA about some of their less worthy changes though.

I do and have done, this isn't the place for it though

.......

Nobbyspiles · Jul 16, 2013

Surely riding down to a mini roundabout and doing a 360 to go back the way you came would constitute an example of where a rider needs to be able to do a u turn competently. ?.I certainly think so. What's the radius of the wee whilte circle in the centre usually. ?

BBB61 · Jul 17, 2013

Timolgra said:
Strangley, you're user name isn't one I recognise. Have I pissed you off in a past life or something, perhaps your ex plod?

No, you haven't pissed me off, but you have kept me bemused with your posts in the 1200 section.

Timolgra said:
Yes, but not necessarily to a high degree of proficiency, that can be sorted later

So why bother with it in CBT when there are other aspects of riding which are more worthy of attention? If it can be sorted later then it can be introduced later when a rider has completed CBT and has a bit more confidence.

Timolgra said:
I do and have done, this isn't the place for it though

It's as good a place as any.

BBB61 · Jul 17, 2013

Ogmios said:
The value of U Turns in the test;
Combines machine handling skills and hazard awareness / hazard management and risk assessment all in one manouevre (sp?).
The Examiner has the candidate focussed on ONE task - the turn.
But the candidate must demonstrate, using a recipe of skills taught by their instructor, ALL the skills combined, into a display of competence and confidence,
Just like Real World riding.
~~
Og

Except the U turn is now carried out as part of the module 1 test in a safe off road environment. And to think it is classed as a serious fault if they happen to dab their foot down in the middle of the turn to keep the bike upright.

And having passed the test how many riders actually do a U turn in their everyday riding?

verona · Jul 17, 2013

Lets face it

If you can't do a u turn on a 125cc you probably shouldn't be on the road. As said before a roundabout is a kind of u turn.

Wreford Miles · Jul 17, 2013

BBB61 said:
I was talking about the U turn in the context of CBT Wreford.

I was being more general, although I think it's a good idea as it's not a bad way to spot those that might be at risk when on the road. If you can't do a U Turn on a 125 you've got to ask why.

BBB61 said:
Why should a rider stay off the road if they can't do a U turn? I am sure there are thousands of motorcyclists out there who can't do U turns but that doesn't mean they are not capable riders.

I'm not saying they should stay off the road, Im saying that I would suggest they stay off the road. If I had a friend or a loved one who could not get their head around doing a U Turn Id not want them on the road, there's not many second chances on bikes!

BBB61 said:
It's not that simple and neither is comparing the U turn with running wide on a left hand bend.

Yes it is... People run ride because they've not got the confidence in themselves or the bike and allow fear to dictate what they do. Screwing up a U Turn is the same

BBB61 said:
And you think spending time teaching a u turn is more important than taking someone out and showing them how to corner properly, how to look at the vanishing point and how to position themselves correctly as they approach a corner? I know which one out of the two I would rather spend more time on teaching.

Did I say that?...all of the above should be done but I think, especially as you're talking CBT and therefore new riders, that U Turns are a great way to identify riders that may be at risk and they should work on that before moving onto the above.

Timolgra · Jul 17, 2013

BBB61 said:
So why bother with it in CBT when there are other aspects of riding which are more worthy of attention? .

So that 16/17 year old understands the importance of coming to a stop in a safe, convenient place before taking appropriate observations and not just whizzing his scoot around in the road because he's just past his mates.
Just like I'd insist on my own son doing and because at the same time making the student aware that a car may make an unexpected U turn in front if him.

Yes some struggle with control to confidently make a safe U turn and can consider other options but the same/similar observations still apply.

I feel you're focusing your argument on the length if time it takes a weak student to master the turn, but you'll know that once the penny drops they can do it time after time almost wondering why they struggled earlier and at the same time have reinforced their observations etc.

So you may want to lobby the DSA on dropping U turns (pun) if you believe a rider has acceptable slow speed control even though they can't complete a couple of successful turns, but I won't

Ogmios · Jul 17, 2013

BBB61 said:
Except the U turn is now carried out as part of the module 1 test in a safe off road environment. And to think it is classed as a serious fault if they happen to dab their foot down in the middle of the turn to keep the bike upright.

And having passed the test how many riders actually do a U turn in their everyday riding?

In Ireland the U Turn is onroad.
Agree that U Turns are rare in Real World riding, but my point remains - it is a good measure of competency.
~~
Og
I'm not replying to this thread any more - it's just getting ridiculous. :blast

Smug · Jul 17, 2013

BBB61 said:
I am sure there are thousands of motorcyclists out there who can't do U turns but that doesn't mean they are not capable riders.

Have to disagree with you there. When I see riders paddling instead of doing a feet up U turn, I can't help thinking that they are not capable riders. Normally all the gear and no idea.

I think that it is time well spent making sure that new riders are able to do full lock U turns in both directions and learning the consequences of what will happen if they get it wrong.

Not all youngsters ride cycles nowadays which is a shame because some of the skills of riding a cycle must transfer to riding a motorcycle.

full lock slow speed turns

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