Yes or no. Scottish residents only please

Blackal · Jan 17, 2014

Fanum said:
And of course sir has figures (from a reputable independent source) to prove all of that ?

PS If Toddy comes on to this thread and just posts cut and paste spam bollocks, I give fair warning, I am going to utter some rather rude words to the brainless prick.

So - which is it?

Copy and paste in some statistics....................... or not?

"fucking toe the line"................ I refer you back to point (2) of my reply to Stevie73.

Al

Schtum · Jan 17, 2014

Fanum said:
And of course sir has figures (from a reputable independent source) to prove all of that ?

What is this "reputable independent source" of which you speak? Sadly, we're not living in an ideal world and you know that as well as I do....well, perhaps you don't since England, particularly the overheated, soft, Southern underbelly does get the lion's share....

There's lots of stuff that's been published on the web and I defy anyone to say one way or another that one source spouts the definitive "truth".

Two things though - a) for me it's about much more than money in the here and now and b) you might want to see what you make of this.....

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/where-does-scotlands-wealth-go/

Den · Jan 17, 2014

Its degenerating into another 'argument post'.

Stevie73 · Jan 17, 2014

Schtum said:
That's bollox, Steve. It's actually the other way round. Scotland is a nett exporter of everything to England - money, energy, talent, you name it you owe us for it.

I have actually explained elsewhere why you don't get a vote. It's just like your missus might choose to leave you and you wouldn't get a vote in that.

Schtum, I've met you and you're clearly a very intelligent man, but are you seriously saying that Scotland has been solely responsible for propping up the union throughout its history?

Posh Pete · Jan 17, 2014

Den said:
Its degenerating into another 'argument post'.

Sadly true Den but a worthy attempt anyway. Shame about the illiterates/ drunks / willful reprobates who ignored your proviso re "Scottish residents". We'll see what September 14th brings.

Schtum · Jan 17, 2014

Stevie73 said:
Schtum, I've met you and you're clearly a very intelligent man, but are you seriously saying that Scotland has been solely responsible for propping up the union throughout its history?

It's a bit more complex than that, Steve - see my reply to Fanum above. However, there's a lot of recent evidence, including articles by former senior members of Treasury staff which say that Scotland has for many years been making a greater per capita contribution to the Exchequer than England has. Also, arguably, Scotland as well as much of the rest of UK, has been seriously disadvantaged by the migration of much of the creation of wealth to the SE of England. I'd argue that in Scotland we've actually suffered 300 years of that. If the status quo remains, that's very unlikely to change. However, as I've also said, it's not just about money, it's about self-determination.

Edit: Sorry, Dennis.... :blush

Fanum · Jan 17, 2014

Schtum said:
Two things though - a) for me it's about much more than money in the here and now and b) you might want to see what you make of this.....

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/where-does-scotlands-wealth-go/

Clearly and blatantly selected 'facts' and statistics aimed at backing up a tenuous opinion.

The poor
Whilst according to the Times,1 in 29 Londoners are dollar millionaires, 29% of Scots live in fuel poverty

Seriously? Does that actually mean anything? It's just utter crap, selected factoids that add up to fuck all apart from comparing fake apples with hormonally bred pears........go look up what the definition of 'fuel poverty' is , then do a quick google and see how many London boroughs are, per household, on average, in that state.......No fuckit, I'll give you a head start......Barking and Dagenham....Brent.....Bromley (crystal palace ward) Camden, Croydon, Ealing, Enfield, Greenwich.......sod it, I'm bored already and we're only up to the letter "G"......yet how many people do you suppose live in those boroughs compared to the population of Scotland? :augie

You should be ashamed of yourself, citing that piece of garbage journalism in any sort of serious context. :rob

(we both know that 'Dollar millonaires is also utter crap, and someone who is technically one of those according to those figures could also be living well below the poverty line with no alternatives)

I take your point entirely that it's more than money though, and if 'you lot' wanted to go your own way, fine, I have no problems with that.........as long as you accept any and all of the consequences of your decision.
:comfort

Fanum · Jan 17, 2014

scotboxer said:
Sadly true Den but a worthy attempt anyway. Shame about the illiterates/ drunks / willful reprobates who ignored your proviso re "Scottish residents". We'll see what September 14th brings.

Illiterate no, drunk, well possibly but irrelevant.......willful reprobate, aye, I hold my hands up to that one.

Honestly though, ALL of us surely have a right to an opinion.......I have not voted in Den's poll as a nod to his wish to find a figure from only the Jocks, but making the debate all insular and internal can't be good.

If a rabid anti-Scot comes along and is just ranting and raving based on his or her nationalistic bias, fair enough, dismiss them, but until then, we ARE still a Union.

(I still didn't vote though , 'cos that what Den asked for

)

Schtum · Jan 17, 2014

Fanum said:
I take your point entirely that it's more than money though, and if 'you lot' wanted to go your own way, fine, I have no problems with that.........as long as you accept any and all of the consequences of your decision.

It's a good job I'm not as sensitive to being patronised as att....

A) there's an implied consequence in there that the consequences for Scotland will be dire. B) I don't think any sensible, rational person would vote for Independence without considering that it's for better or worse. We've been married to England long enough to know about that.

However, I suspect that it's all academic anyway. There are probably too many conservative people in Scotland and they'll opt for safety rather than change without realising that if would actually be safer to change.

morty · Jan 17, 2014

schtum do you honestly think the arseholes we have as politicians up here are any good?? & will do scotland any good? i wouldn't trust the fuckers to go shopping together in sainsburys.you can substitute the word safety for common sense.

Fanum · Jan 18, 2014

Schtum said:
It's a good job I'm not as sensitive to being patronised as att.... A) there's an implied consequence in there that the consequences for Scotland will be dire. B) I don't think any sensible, rational person would vote for Independence without considering that it's for better or worse. We've been married to England long enough to know about that.

However, I suspect that it's all academic anyway. There are probably too many conservative people in Scotland and they'll opt for safety rather than change without realising that if would actually be safer to change.

It certainly wasn't intentionally implied by me.....is that an innate inferiority complex nudging up towards the surface?

As for your "B" option......from what I've seen here and just around generally, there doesn't actually seem to be much rational discussion or solid figures to base any opinion on :augie

It feels like there are the slightly rabid fantasist nationalists (as there always are in such matters) and the conservatives (with a very small "c"), with a smattering of business leaders with, no doubt, huge invested interests on one or other side of the divide.

There remain (from my admittedly extremely limited grasp of world economics) some huge and yet totally unanswered questions lurking around the debate like the proverbial elephant in the room....Not least are the questions of your currency and its dependance (or otherwise) on the Bank of ENGLAND.......Trident and NATO and your general positioning in the various levels of the world economy and the alliances within it.

My own preference (albeit an off-the-cuff gut feeling based purely on an ideal) would be a hell of a lot more regionally devolved power with central government only there as a broad national policy making entity and centre of Law, international policy and the Military.

hen again, I'm just a thicko living in Essex

Schtum · Jan 18, 2014

morty said:
schtum do you honestly think the arseholes we have as politicians up here are any good?? & will do scotland any good? i wouldn't trust the fuckers to go shopping together in sainsburys.you can substitute the word safety for common sense.

Do you really think the ladies and gentlemen in Westminster have our best interests at heart? If it's a choice between Alex Salmond and David Cameron I know which way I'll be voting. However, it's not just about them, it's about a political orientation and an opportunity to create a different kind of society in Scotland.

Schtum · Jan 18, 2014

Fanum said:
It certainly wasn't intentionally implied by me.....is that an innate inferiority complex nudging up towards the surface?

Not in the slightest William. It is however, somewhat presumptuous of you to suggest that you don't have any problem with Scottish Independence so long as we accept any and all of the consequences of our decision. I don't think that's your call for the same reason that no-one resident in England will have the right to vote in the referendum.

Whatton · Jan 18, 2014

Schtum said:
Not in the slightest William. It is however, somewhat presumptuous of you to suggest that you don't have any problem with Scottish Independence so long as we accept any and all of the consequences of our decision. I don't think that's your call for the same reason that no-one resident in England will have the right to vote in the referendum.

Den said Yes or No.

Schtum · Jan 18, 2014

Whatton said:
Den said Yes or No.

Yes but he undersells himself, terribly. He's capable of so much more than that.

DavidHale · Jan 18, 2014

Schtum said:
Yes but he undersells himself, terribly. He's capable of so much more than that.

But that's irrelevant. It's the future of your country you're talking about and it comes down to a simple yes or no. Forget all the rest.

Whatton · Jan 18, 2014

Schtum said:
Yes but he undersells himself, terribly. He's capable of so much more than that.

Den said Yes or No.

Deleted account 190920001 · Jan 18, 2014

My vote is yes but if a compromise has to be made then let's move the UK government north of the border and govern the UK from here.
How about that my good friends from the SE of England? Surely if there is no problem with Westminster ruling the country it should be fine to change it to Edinburgh for a few hundred years?

morty · Jan 18, 2014

if we could abolish political parties & elect people who are capable of running scotland that would be a different matter.we still have the “london has got it in for the scots” mentality.they have fecked a large majority of our southern brothers counties.do i want to pay more tax to support lazy bastards? eh no i don’t.looking after old folk who have worked all they’re days or raised families? yes.are we going to be able to reduce fuel costs, eh nope.forget the oil & whisky industry for now wheres our growth going to come from? we should have been building new nuclear power plants years ago. Windpower is a joke(wee eck knows it) & earns folk with real cash real returns paid by us.i could go on writing for hours,we are not in a position to run ourselves christ look at the parties in holyrood,our councils are in disarray?our roads are fucked as is manufacturing and too many of us live in the past and think labour has our best interests at heart,wake up people your better educated & have better opportunities than any of your previous family generations have ever had.the only thing stopping you is you.

DavidHale · Jan 18, 2014

Marki_GSA said:
My vote is yes but if a compromise has to be made then let's move the UK government north of the border and govern the UK from here.
How about that my good friends from the SE of England? Surely if there is no problem with Westminster ruling the country it should be fine to change it to Edinburgh for a few hundred years?

The problem with that is the centre of gravity of the population. 25-30 million people live in the south east of the UK. 5 million live north of the English/Scottish border. And then we get the knotty problem of Scottish MPs voting on purely English issues but not vice-versa...

Yes or no. Scottish residents only please

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