I'm not even going to read that lot... all meaningless twaddle.. show some hard evidence (from someone without a financial interest in flogging brake fluid), that death and destruction await those not changing their fluid..
Brake Fluid Replacement
- Thread starter davnjud
- Start date
I like your style! If you dismiss things without reading them I doubt anything I or others say will influence you. Of course a lot of this stuff will be published by the people making brakes, they are the experts. But to those with less closed minds I would say, just do your own checking, I really would like to know if anyone can come up with any hard evidence that there is no deterioration over time to concern us. And ask yourself this, if there was no problem with dot 3 or dot 4 fluid why have they invested in developing systems to use dot 5 fluid?
It is not necessarily about " death or destruction" as you put it, all such phrases do is reduce the debate to the level of the tabloid press. It is about a sensible routine maintenance. A fluid change costs very little in the real world (excluding some places that make out it is a black art and takes half a day) I for one would gladly pay to avoid even the suspicion that my brakes were not in top order.
John
STUBBS
undead
Have not changed or topped up my brake fluid in 6 years never had a problem
ghiribizzo
Registered user
Try horsing it down a few Alpine passes as fast as you can and let us know how it brakes...
Katnip
Registered user
brake fluid
I don't know about the technical aspect, and to be honest I only got involved in brake fluid changes when I bought my first gs, a 2006 with servo.
However, I remember a couple of years ago when I and three mates were descending from Hitlers nest which is a fairly steep route to the bottom.
The guy in front had a Triumph Tiger and I thought he was taking some very serious chances half way down on the bends, and he appeared to be struggling.
Is was when we stopped at the bottom it became apparant that his brake fluid had boiled up and the brakes became next to useless.
He bought the bike second hand and had it for only 8 months and I know he is not the type to 'waste' money on servicing costs.
It sounds to me the Grey One is talking sense
I don't know about the technical aspect, and to be honest I only got involved in brake fluid changes when I bought my first gs, a 2006 with servo.However, I remember a couple of years ago when I and three mates were descending from Hitlers nest which is a fairly steep route to the bottom.
The guy in front had a Triumph Tiger and I thought he was taking some very serious chances half way down on the bends, and he appeared to be struggling.
Is was when we stopped at the bottom it became apparant that his brake fluid had boiled up and the brakes became next to useless.
He bought the bike second hand and had it for only 8 months and I know he is not the type to 'waste' money on servicing costs.
It sounds to me the Grey One is talking sense
Five of our lovely English pounds will buy you enough brake fluid to bleed your brakes. Have a look at the colour of the fluid in your reservoir. It starts off looking clear then goes darker as it gets used. I change mine when it gets dark. Usually once a year. The clutch goes darker quicker. I too remember the days when I didn't service my car (Couldn't afford to run it and service it) and because I lived in Yorkshire with big hills always crapping myself when coming to the bottom and nearing a junction. Now I have a little more money and some confidence in my ability to do minor servicing I look after my vehicles. Its probably cheaper in the long run. And safer.
1130cc
Registered user
I usually change mine around every couple of years, or if it is no longer crystal clear.
Bahnstormers charge £70 to chnage the brake fluid, well that is how much it would add to the bill.
Sorry, but that is really tearing the arse.
Bahnstormers charge £70 to chnage the brake fluid, well that is how much it would add to the bill.
Sorry, but that is really tearing the arse.
Nobody is doubting the hygroscopic properties of brake fluid, but the issue here; Is the fluid system sealed OR NOT. I'm tending to side with Sleepy on this one
It's certainly not hermetically sealed. As the pads wear, the space behind the pistons is taken up with brake fluid and the level in the master cylinder reservoir drops to be replaced by air. There's always air above the fluid in the master cylinder, even when there's a sponge in there and there's always moisture in the air and this is absorbed by the brake fluid. So....
In the front brake reservoir on the kawasaki there is a rubber cover over the fluid.As the fluid goes down it causes a vacuum in the reservoir which suggests to me that it's pretty much near as dammit, air tight. All the condensation forms on top of the rubber.
Yes and it's good to see manufacturers doing what they can to preserve the quality of something as important as brake fluid but I bet that Kawasaki still specify a brake fluid change at regular intervals (probably every two years). The best illustration I ever had was clutch related rather than brakes but I remember the clutch on my old '98 VFR800 being spongy, heavy and the clutch dragging when the fluid which had become pretty manky was due a change. A quick bleed through and all was well again.
It's false economy and potentially dangerous to neglect something so relatively simple.
Bendy toy
Registered user
To avoid reading this diatribe - the upshot is fail to change the brake fluid and the caliper seal grooves will corrode and eventually jam the pistons. Crud between the seals on a BMW/Brembo caliper will also jam the piston but corrosion seems to be less of an issue.
Ive just rebuilt the back calliper on my 2008 1200GSA. Before I bought it the bike had BMW extended warranty and all BMW servicing. However the back brake was beginning to stick. I had already cleaned the pads and sliders but the pedal was feeling solid and the disc binding. Having had Japanese bikes with badly corroded calliper seal grooves, I decided it was time for some new seals. The pistons came out easily with a bike tyre pump and air bed inflator attachment but one was more stiff than the other. Thankfully there was no corrosion but fluid in the lower cylinder was darker and that was the one sticking. New seals and its all back on the bike with brand new fluid. I did not use the GS-911 but then I wasn't playing with the front brakes.
Does old brake fluid deteriorate? Dead right it does. Should it be replaced every 2 years? Who am I to argue. The cost is minimal for a fluid change or rather flush-through its not really possible to thoroughly change the fluid. A full strip every few years make sense to be sure the pistons are moving and there is no corrosion. Don't scratch the anodising !!!
The Yamaha Diversion 600 I bought in 2006 was 8 years old with 813 miles on the clock and garaged all its life. I changed the oil and flushed the brake brake fluid through. But after a few months the back brake started to stick. I freed off the caliper but after 100 miles on the motorway the back brake had become so hot the black paint in the middle of the disc had burnt to light grey ash. All signs of black were gone. The brake never showed any signs of boiling its fluid - but then it was new fluid. Thankfully, the disc survived. I now assume a binding brake needs a full strip. Simply freeing off the pads and sliders is unlikely to solve the root problems.
The Diversion brake pistons were jammed solid even after all that heat. It was close to being a scrap caliper but I managed to get the old pistons out using hydraulic pressure. 100psi compressed air had no effect. Corrosion in the seal grooves had mangled the seals and jammed the pistons. It was all cleaned up with red grease in the seal grooves and packed under the dust seals. The brake itself had minimal corrosion but hidden away things were not so nice. Had it been a front brake I probably would have scrapped the caliper.
My next bike was 900 Diversion. Again, the back brake needed new seals and had to be stripped every 2 years to avoid any build up of corrosion in the seal grooves. Doing it regularly was a pain but saved me the cost of new seals. I had Blue spots on the front which suffered much less with seal corrosion.
A 2001 (bought in 2007) Fiat Punto HGT. Soon enough a front caliper seized up. The piston was solid and had to be sent away for rebuild. The brake specialist said it was corrosion in the seal grooves. I also changed the rear wheel cylinders - at £15 each it was daft not to. Front brake hoses got changed when the caliper was done. Bought cheap, run cheap and I got the bill.
The Mk2 Punto HGT has a 1746 engine - not slow & mine got "properly" used.
The brakes never showed any signs of fading but piston seal grooves had corroded due to lack of proper maintenance. Iron is less fussy than aluminium but its not stainless.
My 2004 Cannondale mountain bike has Hope M4 hydraulic brakes. They use Dot 5.1 fluid which does not absorb moisture but the caliper pistons were mostly seized and a nightmare to remove. I had to bleed each one and use hydraulic pressure to force out the pistons. The calipers were in good condition but the metal pistons were a mess. New phenolic pistons and its now working fine. Will I be changing the fluid every 2 years? Probably not - Dot 5.1 is silicone based, but they wont be left for another 10 years like the first set.
Ive just rebuilt the back calliper on my 2008 1200GSA. Before I bought it the bike had BMW extended warranty and all BMW servicing. However the back brake was beginning to stick. I had already cleaned the pads and sliders but the pedal was feeling solid and the disc binding. Having had Japanese bikes with badly corroded calliper seal grooves, I decided it was time for some new seals. The pistons came out easily with a bike tyre pump and air bed inflator attachment but one was more stiff than the other. Thankfully there was no corrosion but fluid in the lower cylinder was darker and that was the one sticking. New seals and its all back on the bike with brand new fluid. I did not use the GS-911 but then I wasn't playing with the front brakes.
Does old brake fluid deteriorate? Dead right it does. Should it be replaced every 2 years? Who am I to argue. The cost is minimal for a fluid change or rather flush-through its not really possible to thoroughly change the fluid. A full strip every few years make sense to be sure the pistons are moving and there is no corrosion. Don't scratch the anodising !!!
The Yamaha Diversion 600 I bought in 2006 was 8 years old with 813 miles on the clock and garaged all its life. I changed the oil and flushed the brake brake fluid through. But after a few months the back brake started to stick. I freed off the caliper but after 100 miles on the motorway the back brake had become so hot the black paint in the middle of the disc had burnt to light grey ash. All signs of black were gone. The brake never showed any signs of boiling its fluid - but then it was new fluid. Thankfully, the disc survived. I now assume a binding brake needs a full strip. Simply freeing off the pads and sliders is unlikely to solve the root problems.
The Diversion brake pistons were jammed solid even after all that heat. It was close to being a scrap caliper but I managed to get the old pistons out using hydraulic pressure. 100psi compressed air had no effect. Corrosion in the seal grooves had mangled the seals and jammed the pistons. It was all cleaned up with red grease in the seal grooves and packed under the dust seals. The brake itself had minimal corrosion but hidden away things were not so nice. Had it been a front brake I probably would have scrapped the caliper.
My next bike was 900 Diversion. Again, the back brake needed new seals and had to be stripped every 2 years to avoid any build up of corrosion in the seal grooves. Doing it regularly was a pain but saved me the cost of new seals. I had Blue spots on the front which suffered much less with seal corrosion.
A 2001 (bought in 2007) Fiat Punto HGT. Soon enough a front caliper seized up. The piston was solid and had to be sent away for rebuild. The brake specialist said it was corrosion in the seal grooves. I also changed the rear wheel cylinders - at £15 each it was daft not to. Front brake hoses got changed when the caliper was done. Bought cheap, run cheap and I got the bill.
The Mk2 Punto HGT has a 1746 engine - not slow & mine got "properly" used.
The brakes never showed any signs of fading but piston seal grooves had corroded due to lack of proper maintenance. Iron is less fussy than aluminium but its not stainless.My 2004 Cannondale mountain bike has Hope M4 hydraulic brakes. They use Dot 5.1 fluid which does not absorb moisture but the caliper pistons were mostly seized and a nightmare to remove. I had to bleed each one and use hydraulic pressure to force out the pistons. The calipers were in good condition but the metal pistons were a mess. New phenolic pistons and its now working fine. Will I be changing the fluid every 2 years? Probably not - Dot 5.1 is silicone based, but they wont be left for another 10 years like the first set.
Nobody mentions dirt or contaminants. On larger hydraulic systems, filtration is used but on a car or bike the makers deem it easier to flush and replace the hydraulic medium instead. The dirt or contaminants within the brake system are microscopic wear particles and corrosion. When that expensive Servo hydraulic ABS pump fails through dirty fluid, where's the saving??
Agree with the hygroscopic/brake fade argument having experienced it on a track day.
Agree with the hygroscopic/brake fade argument having experienced it on a track day.
Thanks for all the replies - It has really helped me sort out my thinking on this. I too have suffered from binding back brakes on 3 different bikes recently including the current 2013 GSA and a 2011 Pan st1300 so newness is no gtee of avoiding this problem if you use the bike in winter.
Riding a bike without changing the fluid every two years is hardly like playing Russian roulette unless you plan on working your brakes really hard by riding down mountain passes. I try to ride without using brakes too much - The service department representative at BMW dealer could not believe my pads were only 10% worn at 12k service. I notice that the EBC pads article cited by Grey One only recommended changing after 6 years. So its dodgy not to change the fluid but probably more like playing Russian roulette with only one bullet and 50 chambers.
Having said all that I have been persuaded to buy a sealey vacuum pump (- my usual biking response to anything seems to be spend more !) and going forward will change the fluids as per schedule. All my bikes have ABS and don't want corrosion messing up all their twiddly bits. So its for a valid economic reason that I am going to do it. I can also bask in confidence on my next mountain pass ( that's it now after this thread I would never enjoy them again without knowing the fluid was up to muster) knowing I have used an abundance of caution with my brakes -which is the right way to be
Riding a bike without changing the fluid every two years is hardly like playing Russian roulette unless you plan on working your brakes really hard by riding down mountain passes. I try to ride without using brakes too much - The service department representative at BMW dealer could not believe my pads were only 10% worn at 12k service. I notice that the EBC pads article cited by Grey One only recommended changing after 6 years. So its dodgy not to change the fluid but probably more like playing Russian roulette with only one bullet and 50 chambers.
Having said all that I have been persuaded to buy a sealey vacuum pump (- my usual biking response to anything seems to be spend more !) and going forward will change the fluids as per schedule. All my bikes have ABS and don't want corrosion messing up all their twiddly bits. So its for a valid economic reason that I am going to do it. I can also bask in confidence on my next mountain pass ( that's it now after this thread I would never enjoy them again without knowing the fluid was up to muster) knowing I have used an abundance of caution with my brakes -which is the right way to be
Did mine last week. Just the old fashioned way with a bit of tube and a bottle. Also did the GS911 thing to flush the abs or whatever. A couple of air bubbles. Came through mid way. All fine now.
In reality and simply put, it does need changing. If it needs changing every 2 years is another matter. As most people don't own a BF tester you have to set a schedule and 2 years is probably erring on the side of safety. HOWEVER, I would rather pay for a change every 2 years rather than face a problem when I really need the brakes, or needing to replace calipers etc when they fail.
Thanks for all the replies - It has really helped me sort out my thinking on this. I too have suffered from binding back brakes on 3 different bikes recently including the current 2013 GSA and a 2011 Pan st1300 so newness is no gtee of avoiding this problem if you use the bike in winter.
Riding a bike without changing the fluid every two years is hardly like playing Russian roulette unless you plan on working your brakes really hard by riding down mountain passes. I try to ride without using brakes too much - The service department representative at BMW dealer could not believe my pads were only 10% worn at 12k service. I notice that the EBC pads article cited by Grey One only recommended changing after 6 years. So its dodgy not to change the fluid but probably more like playing Russian roulette with only one bullet and 50 chambers.
Having said all that I have been persuaded to buy a sealey vacuum pump (- my usual biking response to anything seems to be spend more !) and going forward will change the fluids as per schedule. All my bikes have ABS and don't want corrosion messing up all their twiddly bits. So its for a valid economic reason that I am going to do it. I can also bask in confidence on my next mountain pass ( that's it now after this thread I would never enjoy them again without knowing the fluid was up to muster) knowing I have used an abundance of caution with my brakes -which is the right way to be
One small point of order young sir!
I was not likening not changing brake fluid to playing Russian Roulette. What I was doing was pointing out that people saying that they had never changed brake fluid and not had problems had little value because of the chance element involved. Hence the reference to those who had survived Russian roulette. An extreme example to prove the point that something bad not happening is no proof that something is safe.
John
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