Overtaking Speed

Hi All,

The 40mph speed limit through the A453 roadworks heading up to Nottingham gives me plenty of opportunities for overtaking. The road is pretty narrow and with panniers on you have to pick your moments but no problems in the last three months.

I've gotten into the habit of picking a spot several cars ahead, waiting for a decent space and then moving out wide and letting rip. I don't get anywhere near the bikes full abilities, but I don't hang around. My typical manoeuvre is to move up to the gap, snap the throttle closed and slide in with a quick back brake tap and a thank you wave.

I probably exceed the speed limit during my overtake, but consider this a far safer option than creeping towards opposing traffic. In three months of practice I can judge the timing really well and can use the bikes speed to move up or down as necessary, but my question is about the legality of using what could be considered as excessive speed to produce a safe overtake. A GSA has plenty of power and on many occasions I've extended the overtake to the limit of my vision, (I should say that I'm a pretty casual rider and don't feel the need to overtake / filter constantly.)

I'm thinking of the current / ex police riders, (hope Giles is listening,) for a legal opinion please.

Cheers,

John.

Horrible road at the best of times (and an accident black spot). I wouldn't feck about on it as a rule, especially now with all the road works - what's wrong with going cross country through Gotham etc; a much nicer ride

Andres

If there was a speed camera being pointed at you when you overtook, then you would be caught at over the 40mph speed limit, no matter that it was only for a few yards.

not sure if average cameras would get you though.

Hey Andres,

I go that way too but use the A453 as well just for the practice. I know it isn't quite the same but I am a very experienced road user covering up to 75K in one year so my observations / planning etc. are good. I do recognise that I'm still a new biker, but feel that I've brought a lot of maturity with me which serves to make me err on the side of caution. I get overtaken by kids on scooters all the time in the Nottingham traffic and accept it with a smile.

My constant aim is to learn and develop so I deliberately head for roads like the 453, I also ride over the inspection cover on the Lenton Lane island to feel the little slide which almost made me sh*t myself in December last year. I've picked up a lot of good advice including yours about staying relaxed and not tensing up and even in the monster A42 side winds I've held my nerve and wobbly arms! I can really understand the "50 year old rider scared of bends" videos on Youtube, I've had to dig in mentally for a lot of the "first time" experiences and have been a little bit scared during the last three months. I had a bit of a crisis of confidence in January thinking about expensive repairs, broken bones and even wheelchairs, but I realised that this was the path to the dark side. I remembered a quote from a Stephen King novel where a kid says, "you can't be careful on a skateboard Mr." This made me realise that you need a certain amount of confidence and a big pair of stainless steel balls to use a motorcycle as your sole transport. I'm guessing that in ten years I'll get pretty blasé about roads like the A453, but I hope not.

widget said:

If there was a speed camera being pointed at you when you overtook, then you would be caught at over the 40mph speed limit, no matter that it was only for a few yards.

not sure if average cameras would get you though.

Click to expand...

What would your view be on using the bikes performance to get into a safe position more quickly? I'm thinking ticket / ban VS dead?

Ok it's really very simple ...and you know it ! The speed limit is 40 ... if you travel at more than the ACPO guidelines you commit a speeding offence .. that is 10% of the speed limit, which in this case is 40 so 4mph + 2mph ( which is their error margin ) .. so if you do 46mph at any time during your journey through those roadworks you commit an offence. IF there was a man there with a Lti 20/20 Laser you'd be in the shit but generally roadworks are NOT policed by lasers because you just wouldn't keep up with the workload so they are either left alone completely and not policed or they bung in the "average" speed limits which are plumbed into the ANPR cameras and simply work out how long it has taken you to cover a known distance within those roadworks .. if you are too quick then they will send you a ticket ! If you like your overtakes then it's not really going to make any difference but just to be extra careful try rolling off your speed for the last 2/300 metres before the national speed limit comes back in therefore making your time longer and your speed slower.
The overtakes themselves, if sound and safe and don't cause any drivers to flash/swear/give you the 1 fingered wave would appear to be just fine !!!

If you did it by a speed camera you would score points and pay a fine.

What bit is it that you don't understand about maximum speed limits?

Not a very good overtake if you have to use your brake to get back in again.

So you never exceed the maximum speed limit? Ever, ever even once? Be honest...

Read my post again, the brake tap is purely to give the following car driver some indication that I'm slowing down directly in front of him / her. It states clearly that I close the throttle to lose speed and give a little wave of thanks to be courteous. I've found that this simple act goes a long way in avoiding conflict with car drivers, particularly the few who seem to hate being overtaken.

What I'm talking about is the real world where the chances of seeing a real police officer on the road is pretty rare. To be a bit clearer I might move out to overtake three cars with plenty of space to move back in. On this particular road there is a 40mph speed limit due to some road works so the majority of traffic is moving at 40mph. In purely legal terms I should probably sit in the traffic and never overtake, but my journey time from home to work has been cut in half since I switched to two wheels. This is not a result of excessive speed, I'm a bit of an old fart who just enjoys toodling along, but a combination of overtaking / filtering has made a huge difference, precisely why I bought a bike.

In some parts of the A453 its impossible to overtake without potentially exceeding 40mph, but completely safe to do so. Its a long straight road with excellent visibility, no blind bends, sudden dips etc. so its more of a 40mph speed limit to protect an almost non existent work force. I don't cross solid whites or overtake across right turn hatching, just make safe progress when I can. On busy days I often ride at much less than 40mph to suit the traffic conditions which I think is much more appropriate than sticking to a set speed.

Rusty said:

Ok it's really very simple ...and you know it ! The speed limit is 40 ... if you travel at more than the ACPO guidelines you commit a speeding offence .. that is 10% of the speed limit, which in this case is 40 so 4mph + 2mph ( which is their error margin ) .. so if you do 46mph at any time during your journey through those roadworks you commit an offence. IF there was a man there with a Lti 20/20 Laser you'd be in the shit but generally roadworks are NOT policed by lasers because you just wouldn't keep up with the workload so they are either left alone completely and not policed or they bung in the "average" speed limits which are plumbed into the ANPR cameras and simply work out how long it has taken you to cover a known distance within those roadworks .. if you are too quick then they will send you a ticket ! If you like your overtakes then it's not really going to make any difference but just to be extra careful try rolling off your speed for the last 2/300 metres before the national speed limit comes back in therefore making your time longer and your speed slower.
The overtakes themselves, if sound and safe and don't cause any drivers to flash/swear/give you the 1 fingered wave would appear to be just fine !!!

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Good reply and totally correct. As far as a tap on the brakes is concerned the perfect overtake is one where you don't inconvenience other road users and cause them to change speed/direction as a result.... accelerate , then off the throttle as you pass the vehicle you're overtaking, then naturally enter the gap without having to touch the brakes .

jdcxxx said:

So you never exceed the maximum speed limit? Ever, ever even once? Be honest...

Read my post again, the brake tap is purely to give the following car driver some indication that I'm slowing down directly in front of him / her. It states clearly that I close the throttle to lose speed and give a little wave of thanks to be courteous. I've found that this simple act goes a long way in avoiding conflict with car drivers, particularly the few who seem to hate being overtaken.

What I'm talking about is the real world where the chances of seeing a real police officer on the road is pretty rare. To be a bit clearer I might move out to overtake three cars with plenty of space to move back in. On this particular road there is a 40mph speed limit due to some road works so the majority of traffic is moving at 40mph. In purely legal terms I should probably sit in the traffic and never overtake, but my journey time from home to work has been cut in half since I switched to two wheels. This is not a result of excessive speed, I'm a bit of an old fart who just enjoys toodling along, but a combination of overtaking / filtering has made a huge difference, precisely why I bought a bike.

. Its a long straight road with excellent visibility, no blind bends, sudden dips etc. so its more of a 40mph speed limit to protect an almost non existent work force. I don't cross solid whites or overtake across right turn hatching, just make safe progress when I can. On busy days I often ride at much less than 40mph to suit the traffic conditions which I think is much more appropriate than sticking to a set speed.

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Don't get so defensive. I imagine most on here (most in the UK) exceed the speed limit. That isn't the point. Would you do the overtake into the face of a roadside camera? No you wouldn't, because you know you'd be doing 50/60/70
Have another look at that brake dab. Is it telling the following driver that you are slowing down in what appears by your description, to be a small gap...or does it signal to the driver that you were riding a tad too fast and had to dip in to a near non existent gap? Playing devils advocate here.
I do similar to what you describe but tend to do one or two cars at once, even on roads with a solid whites..but NEVER crossing the white line. I never brake.mi roll on and off the throttle and plan a fairly steady overtake and do the little wave as well. Never had an issue (it doesn't seem like you have either) don't give the impression that it was a last minute thing etc. mainly, car drivers drift to the left for me to pass with a bit more ease. Maybe that's Good old fashioned decent Yorkshire folk?

In some parts of the A453 its impossible to overtake without potentially exceeding 40mph, but completely safe to do so

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So don't overtake then ?.

jdcxxx said:

Hey Andres,

I go that way too but use the A453 as well just for the practice. I know it isn't quite the same but I am a very experienced road user covering up to 75K in one year so my observations / planning etc. are good......................a certain amount of confidence and a big pair of stainless steel balls to use a motorcycle as your sole transport. I'm guessing that in ten years I'll get pretty blasé about roads like the A453, but I hope not.

Click to expand...

Hey up, yeah I get all that and there's nothing wrong with wanting to learn and working hard at that; for me, and I'm sure others, that's one of the joys of riding a bike, we never stop learning.

I was just making the point that the road in question is a nightmare at the best of times, let alone now it has road works on it and a temp 40 limit. It's the main trunk road into Nottingham from J24 of the M1 and full of lorries and reps in their Audis. If traffic is travelling at 40, which it does do 'cos of the avg speed cameras on that section then I, personally, would not be overtaking along there. There is little to be gained, you just end up behind yet another truck, and there is a lot to be lost. A good flowing road with steady traffic would be a much better place to practice if that's what you want to do IMO.

Re brake lights upon pulling in from an overtake, have you considered what an inattentive driver might do if the first thing they are aware of is a bike appearing in front of them showing it's brake lights?

Oh, and your bit about slippery manhole covers.............. If you want to get used to your bike moving around a little in a safe environment give me a shout when the weather is a little drier and I'll take you on some very easy trails up in the Peaks (road tyres will be fine). There is no better way to build confidence in a bike and your abilities than to ride off road

Andres

jdcxxx said:

Hi All,

The 40mph speed limit through the A453 roadworks heading up to Nottingham gives me plenty of opportunities for overtaking. The road is pretty narrow and with panniers on you have to pick your moments but no problems in the last three months.

I've gotten into the habit of picking a spot several cars ahead, waiting for a decent space and then moving out wide and letting rip. I don't get anywhere near the bikes full abilities, but I don't hang around. My typical manoeuvre is to move up to the gap, snap the throttle closed and slide in with a quick back brake tap and a thank you wave.

I probably exceed the speed limit during my overtake, but consider this a far safer option than creeping towards opposing traffic. In three months of practice I can judge the timing really well and can use the bikes speed to move up or down as necessary, but my question is about the legality of using what could be considered as excessive speed to produce a safe overtake. A GSA has plenty of power and on many occasions I've extended the overtake to the limit of my vision, (I should say that I'm a pretty casual rider and don't feel the need to overtake / filter constantly.)

I'm thinking of the current / ex police riders, (hope Giles is listening,) for a legal opinion please.

Cheers,

John.

Click to expand...

I'm not really sure what you are are asking.
If you exceed the speed limit while overtaking you are committing an offence. That much I think is clear.
Whether your overtakes are safe that's another question.

I frequently speed. I think my riding is safe and think my speed is appropriate for the traffic/road conditions. I KNOW the authorities would not see it that way.
I will take responsibility for actions and when I caught.

Or have I missed the point?

The anwser is really simple from a legal point of view. If you are unable to safely complete the overtake without going over the speed limit then dont start the overtake, if in order to complete the manover safely you have no choice but to go over the speed limit then you have the possibility of driving with out due care and consideration as well.
The clue is in the title "Speed LIMIT" as said above speed cameras have NO leaway.

On the other hand you may well get away with it, if dealing with real old bill not a camera, and the overtake was done correctly, however the legal position is that you have to be able to overtake and stay under the limit there is no allowance to make it a bit easier or safer but going over the limit.

Now dont have a go at me and ask dont I do this or that because the anwser is of course I do, but I also know that when I am doing it I am in fact breaking the law, and unfortunatly no ammount of wanting it to be different will make it so.

I dont understand the taping the brake? if your doing an overtake then you should be going faster than the vehicle your passing so why brake or even tap the brake for the lights? If you must warn another driver of somthing why not use the horn thats what its for? On the point of overtaking at above the speed limit for the road, and without crossing the solid white line in the road. Sombody has decided that they dont want overtaking because there is a solid white line, and yes I know that it means you cant cross the line not that you cant overtake, however on most roads with a solid white line even if there is room to get past there is not then much spare space between you and the vehicle you are passing, so you are doing what is regarded as a high risk manouver i.e. overtake, and close to the vehicle your overtaking, at a place where other road vehicles are prohibited from overtaking, with little saftey room if anything goes wrong, AND you want to break the speed limit as well, I dont know many traffic officers that wouldnt consider that an instant ticket.

Rusty said:

Ok it's really very simple ...and you know it ! The speed limit is 40 ... if you travel at more than the ACPO guidelines you commit a speeding offence .. that is 10% of the speed limit, which in this case is 40 so 4mph + 2mph ( which is their error margin ) .. so if you do 46mph at any time during your journey through those roadworks you commit an offence. IF there was a man there with a Lti 20/20 Laser you'd be in the shit but generally roadworks are NOT policed by lasers because you just wouldn't keep up with the workload so they are either left alone completely and not policed or they bung in the "average" speed limits which are plumbed into the ANPR cameras and simply work out how long it has taken you to cover a known distance within those roadworks .. if you are too quick then they will send you a ticket ! If you like your overtakes then it's not really going to make any difference but just to be extra careful try rolling off your speed for the last 2/300 metres before the national speed limit comes back in therefore making your time longer and your speed slower.
The overtakes themselves, if sound and safe and don't cause any drivers to flash/swear/give you the 1 fingered wave would appear to be just fine !!!

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I think Rusty you are rusty. If you exceed the speed limit you are breaking the law. The 10% +2 thing is dead in the water in most places these days. It's not uncommon to get to get tickets for 3 or 4 mph over the limit as 'they' try to keep the coffers filled in these hard times.

harry said:

I think Rusty you are rusty. If you exceed the speed limit you are breaking the law. The 10% +2 thing is dead in the water in most places these days. It's not uncommon to get to get tickets for 3 or 4 mph over the limit as 'they' try to keep the coffers filled in these hard times.

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ACPO guidelines are 10% +2 .. and regulations state that a speedo fitted to a vehicle has to be accurate to + or - 10% hence the ACPO guidelines. You'd have a statutory defence if you get done for being over the speed limit for less than 10%

i.e 33mph , 44 etc.

This seems to back that up :

United Kingdom

The Motor Vehicles (Approval) Regulations 2001[16] permits single vehicles to be approved. As with the UNECE regulation and the EC Directives, the speedometer must never show an indicated speed less than the actual speed. However it differs slightly from them in specifying that for all actual speeds between 25 mph and 70 mph (or the vehicles' maximum speed if it is lower than this), the indicated speed must not exceed 110% of the actual speed, plus 6.25 mph.
For example, if the vehicle is actually travelling at 50 mph, the speedometer must not show more than 61.25 mph or less than 50 mph.

Hi Guys,

Firstly apologies for any offence caused. I've realised that there is always the possibility of some negative feedback on this site and I take it all with a smile. If any of my responses seem a bit defensive that absolutely isn't the case. My comments are alway tongue in cheek and I'll try a few more smilies next time

From your responses I haven't explained myself very well so here's another go. I overtake at speed because generally I like to get back in quickly. Having said that my riding style is very relaxed and I'm just happy bimbling along in traffic as attempting overtakes. I don't go for small gaps as one of my paramount considerations is courtesy to other road users so when I go for it there is plenty of room. The brake tap isn't braking, I use my accelerator to slide back in because as we all know snapping the throttle closed works very well. It might have sounded like I pull in two feet in front of a car and then ram my brakes on, I don't but I occasionally flash the brake light to show I'm there. If you bear in mind that on completion of an overtake you may well be decelerating so the quick flash just announces your presence. I don't do it all the time but it can be useful if the following car driver is a bit keen. Typically the following car might be up to 40 / 50 metres behind so it isn't always required.

I'm not asking for a lesson on overtaking; that's not me being rude or offensive because I really do like to hear what other riders think and have learnt some VERY useful skills and techniques on this site. I'm happy with how I overtake while recognising the risk of legal problems and my personal view is that once an overtake is on you make quick progress while ensuring you have somewhere safe to end up. For me this would be a space with a few car lengths in front and several more behind me at a speed where I can brake / manoeuvre safely, or stay wide to continue overtaking if possible.

If I'm asking a question I suppose its about self regulation; by this I mean that I could wheelie past traffic at 90 mph, (before you groan I couldn't really,) but the reality of Police presence is that most of the time I could do what ever I wanted on the road. I make the choice to accelerate quickly through an overtake, but I never undertake on a motorway, cross solid whites, intimidate other road users by aggressively filtering etc. etc. I'm sure you all have your own set of personal riding rules built on self preservation and what you feel is courtesy to other road users. My personal feeling is that in the absence of a Police presence / speed camera its up to me to decide what's safe. I'm not ignoring the law and recognise fully that a legal limit is precisely that, (not a target.) I often do make the choice not to overtake or filter because I still leave for work at the same time as when I drove to Nottingham. I did this to allow plenty of time to get used to a bike again and allow time for practising what ever I felt like practising.

Again please keep the comments coming you won't hurt my feelings, I am absolutely loving my GSA and can tell that I'm making great progress having learnt to ride again through the winter months since December last year. I'm not new to riding, I just took a long break, but it is a different world on two wheels these days.

THE SIMPLE ANSWER

1, if you need to exceed the speed limit to overtake, the traffic is going fast enough that in reality you do not need to do it .
2, if you need to use the brake when you come back in you're travelling too fast. If the correct gear is engaged you should be able to complete the overtake without braking which will keep the bike more settled and stable. I also would not advocate "snapping" the throttle closed as you come back in as you have to think about the vehicle behind you. If you dive in and immediately slow down it COULD be dangerous.
Also it tends to highlight that the gap you chose is not really big enough.

Worth a watch
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/VOx8ZhpbppY?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

its all about observation....

you cannot be nicked for speeding if there is no one/or machine there to nick you

so your question is only important if you intend or might do it when there is, so my advice would be spend less time thinking and more time observing

redrick said:

Worth a watch
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/VOx8ZhpbppY?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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How spooky, I watched this last night!