JohnGS1100 Tuning Chip

Mike O said:

Just fitted mine. I turned on the ignition and the bike immediately became sentient and told me to lose weight if I really wanted improved performance. It then self-started and hovered around the garden distilling its own fuel from grass-clippings, before examining my garage and advising me to reorganise it.

Well worth €60...

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Only advising???? Disappointing

EDIT:
FWIW I think John knows what he is talking about. This thread makes me think of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW8amMCVAJQ

Thank to all friends

I am enjoying this thread but I have to confess that all the techno-babble is way over my head.

Mike O said:

Just fitted mine. I turned on the ignition and the bike immediately became sentient and told me to lose weight if I really wanted improved performance. It then self-started and hovered around the garden distilling its own fuel from grass-clippings, before examining my garage and advising me to reorganise it.

Well worth €60...

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Excellent, would have been more impressed if it had organised the garage and distilled a nice brew from the grass clippings too

Been out today with mine. Lots of torque and typically pulling a gear higher than I used too. Seems to be smoother but i didn't think mine was rough or surged before I fitted it.

A worthwhile purchase.

Mike O said:

Just fitted mine. I turned on the ignition and the bike immediately became sentient and told me to lose weight if I really wanted improved performance. It then self-started and hovered around the garden distilling its own fuel from grass-clippings, before examining my garage and advising me to reorganise it.

Well worth €60...

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Funny you should mention that, I fitted my chip last week and today I started re-organising my garage (well it’s a shed really, but you get the drift).

R

Timolgra said:

It do's say something when the only sceptics are those who don't have one fitted to their bike

Mine's been brilliant, bike's packed and ready for a 2 week ride and after 15 yrs of 1150 ownership I've never looked forward to riding it so much.

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That sums it up perfectly.

Smelly Old Boots said:

That sums it up perfectly.

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Owen i was send you a new updated STAGE 5 chip for your R850R. (The previous chip is stage 4).
Will arrive after 4-5 working days.
Try it please, we want to see how goes limit up the torque and power to a R850R. Your bike has a perfect hardware setup (free air filter, de-cat exhaust) so by stage 5 chip i think that the power goes up (from 70Hp) to 80 Hp, and the torques will be much more about 1,1 Kgr at middle revs of rpm. Also will gives better consumption, recommend to use by 95 or 98 octane petrols.
Hope to try and enjoy it !

Flipfly said:

That is my concern also, but on looking at the table posted by Roger, it would appear that the green section is the only section that would be reverted back to stock, the whole section appears to be at very low throttle openings.

The issue is that both parties have a vested interest as Roger is selling something as is John. The big difference for me is that Johns is only £60 as opposed to Rogers $198 + shipping.

Rogers arguement makes sense, as the 02 sensor I'd the last point of information feedback for the motronic, but cars and bikes with standard 02 sensors are chipped everyday, so it must be a viable option.

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I'll agree, price matters. The AF-XIED was my idea as a plug 'n play replacement for the LC-1/LC-2 but it is not my product, I don't sell it. Nightrider engineered and built it (with my inputs on what BMWs need) and Beemerboneyard sells it.

And I'll also say that John is working hard, trying to do the right thing and knows how to competently read and write chips for the Motronic. What I've been trying to do, mostly unsuccessfully so far, is to get John to make better changes for the Closed Loop bike. Since he's convinced himself that I'm wrong on the points I've made (Closed Loop Mixture Adaptation), even though I have proven them, I haven't gotten very far.

You're on the right track. The green and yellow area are for throttle angles less than about 20 degrees. That is where almost all riding (cruising, even up to 100 mph) is done, so it is an important area to make a permanent improvement. That's issue number 1.

Issue number 2, what ever the average fuel addition that John makes in the Closed Loop area is--say he adds 4%--that much fuel will be removed in the Open Loop area. It happens like this: during Closed Loop, the Motronic figures out how much fuel had to be removed to get back to 14.7. That amount of fuel eventually gets added to the Long Term Trims in the Motronic. The Long Term Trims get applied to the entire map. It is City Hall and there is no sense denying it or fighting it.

An excellent solution for the R1150 would be as follows:

1. John puts in the time to figure out exactly which cells in the fuel map are Closed Loop and does not modify them.
2. He buys an LC-2 and sets it in Narrowband simulation mode at an AFR in the range of 13.8-14.1 (this is where most of us have settled out our closed loop fueling.
3. He adds fuel to the Open Loop parts of the chip where he feels it is needed. There are some very light throttle cells that are not closed loop and are quite lean. He may also want to add fuel to the higher power areas but I've already shown there is a lot there. Still, up to him.
4. He builds a chip with the timing adjustments for the entire map that he sees best and then records test runs with a GS-911 to confirm.
5. He makes no mods to the chip except in the fuel and spark maps because the other maps (correction factors for TPS, TPS rate, etc., etc.)

Users could start with that chip and add lambda-shifting if they wanted.

In truth, I think everyone should try lambda shifting. It adds a programmable, controlled amount of fuel to the whole map, and because richer mixtures burn faster the timing is effectively advanced about 2-3 degrees. It produces a very strong running bike, without having to get into the ECU. But each to his/her own.

Roger, I'm no expert obviously, but cars have been chipped in a similar way for many years now and the lambda sensor doesn't seem to be an issue, is our system so advanced compared to a cars?
I understand that the system may make corrections to lean out the bike in closed loop, but surely it won't run it any leaner than it is already?
If the system does go lean, surely the system will rewrite the corrections to run as per factory mixture. Ultimately that would give you closed loop running as per stock with the benefit of richer open loop for more waaaaaaaaang?

Flipfly said:

Roger, I'm no expert obviously, but cars have been chipped in a similar way for many years now and the lambda sensor doesn't seem to be an issue, is our system so advanced compared to a cars?
I understand that the system may make corrections to lean out the bike in closed loop, but surely it won't run it any leaner than it is already?
If the system does go lean, surely the system will rewrite the corrections to run as per factory mixture. Ultimately that would give you closed loop running as per stock with the benefit of richer open loop for more waaaaaaaaang?

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flipfly, I can't comment on other vehicles, but no, the Motronic would not be considered advanced.

As there is only one fueling map (at least for a given bike at a given time, based on coding plug), there is not an open loop map and a closed loop map, per se. It is all the same. There is an area of the map, the area that runs the Closed Loop program, which is almost all RPMs for throttle angles less than about 20 degrees. In that area, once Mixture Adaptation occurs, when the Closed Loop program is running or not, the bike fuels to 14.7:1. As I mentioned above, the average correction factor learned in this area gets applied to higher throttle angles through the long term trims. So a way to get more fuel to higher throttle angles, is to leave the Closed Loop area of the map alone and just add fuel outside the Closed Loop area.

Here is something I posted in the other thread on chipping, you can read the same thing, here:

Here is what Brad said about modding closed loop cells: http://www.bikeboy.org/open_closed_loop_efi.html:

Mine arrived Saturday

Hi John mine arrived Saturday and fitted this evening fired up and running smoothly, will take it for a decent run on Wednesday and report back Many thanks.

Flipfly said:

Roger, I'm no expert obviously, but cars have been chipped in a similar way for many years now and the lambda sensor doesn't seem to be an issue, is our system so advanced compared to a cars?
I understand that the system may make corrections to lean out the bike in closed loop, but surely it won't run it any leaner than it is already?
If the system does go lean, surely the system will rewrite the corrections to run as per factory mixture. Ultimately that would give you closed loop running as per stock with the benefit of richer open loop for more waaaaaaaaang?

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That's rigth
There are many modification at all maps of ECU, the totaly modification gives the correct AFR at all revs of rpm.

This is the AFR at open loop from R1150twin. Up (stock chip), down-red line (stage 4 chip) :
When the thorrotle position is up to 60% (from 4.500 rpm +) the AFR is 14:1 by stock chip, 13:1 by mod chip. The dyno wideband senor begins to measure when the engine is up to 4000+ rpm.
By this richer AFR the engine sounds and works smoothly as Jeremy said.

jeremyj said:

Hi John mine arrived Saturday and fitted this evening fired up and running smoothly, will take it for a decent run on Wednesday and report back Many thanks.

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Also by remmaping the AFR can be richer at CLOSE Loop, when modify and change the values in to a map, called "lambda map".
The value at stock chip :"tells to ECU that needed AFR 14,7 (lean) i change these values , so i "say" to ECU that the corect AFR at close loop now is 14,2:1, so the ECU accept this value as correct and not change or make additional or cuting fuel for open loop. So there is not confuse to ECU, all works correctly.

This is a 2d lamda map from R1150GS single up (blue line) is the stock values, down (red line) is the mod values. At this map, the values for correct AFR are little down values (from 14,7) to 14,2:1, so the AFR is a little richer :

JohnGS1100 said:

...
Also by remmaping the AFR can be richer at CLOSE Loop, when modify and change the values in to a map, called "lambda map".
The value at stock chip :"tells to ECU that needed AFR 14,7 (lean) i change these values , so i "say" to ECU that the corect AFR at close loop now is 14,2:1, so the ECU accept this value as correct and not change or make additional or cuting fuel for open loop. So there is not confuse to ECU, all works correctly.

...

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The Motronic has no such capability to run Closed Loop at anything other than the switching point of the oxygen sensor, which for a stock O2 sensor is lambda=1, which is 14.7:1 for gasoline.

I really can't imagine where you came up with the idea that Closed Loop lambda could be reprogrammed inside the chip of the Motronic. There is no Motronic documentation of this feature. There is no mechanism by which such a feature could work from inside the Motronic. There are no descriptions of a Motronic capability anything like this, anywhere on the web.

Those tables you are re-writing, that you think set Closed Loop AFR, have entirely different functions in the Motronic. It would be best if you didn't modify them until you can document the function.

Please add a link to an article which explains that the Motronic has this capability and how it works ... if you have one show us.

If touring around europe, including slovenia/croatia, what octane rating is most petrol? I've not ventured across to that side of europe yet. if a stage 5 chip requires at least 95 ron, is that likely to be a problem?

John, does the catcode plug for lower octane petrol still work with your chips?

I have no problem understanding the mapping concept and have no doubt John has figured out the fueling and ignition maps and numbers.
I understand that there are open loop and closed loop areas of the map, I am not sure how well these areas have been separated. O2 sensor is chased only in the closed loop sections of lambda which are idle and part load (cruising) at low throttle openings and load. Beyond that the engine runs on maps only.

I also understand that narrow band O2 sensor can only chase lambda = 1 and has no idea how rich or how lean the mixture is.
Therefore I am having problems with Johns explanation of ability to chase any lambda ratio.

Additionally concept of long term adaptation is also not fully understood in this particular control unit. Does it really blanket the whole map?

If the map is changed in the closed loop area and the O2 sensor is unable to bring it back at some point it will give up and revert to the predetermined value (back to the map). I have no idea what long term problems (if any) this would create for the catalytic converter.

Main reason that the O2 sensor was ever introduced was to keep the mixture oscillating in the perfect range to allow the cat to do its job. Other than that maps are all the system needs to function properly.

Before we get bogged down in screenshots lets get the concepts straight.

mr_magicfingers said:

If touring around europe, including slovenia/croatia, what octane rating is most petrol? I've not ventured across to that side of europe yet. if a stage 5 chip requires at least 95 ron, is that likely to be a problem?

John, does the catcode plug for lower octane petrol still work with your chips?

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Yes.
For R1150 :
Pins 30 87 stantard setting (GS-R).
Pins 30 87 87a is for all R1150 with large intake injection tubes from RT-RS.
And when connect the pin 86 at all up settings, is for using low octane petrols.

John

What a difference chip has made thought it was running well before, but now really notice difference very smooth throughout rev range even sounds better. The only thing that I have noticed is tick over slightly higher. Many thanks well worth it so far will report back on my MPG next fill.:

cele0001 said:

I have no problem understanding the mapping conce.........................
If the map is changed in the closed loop area and the O2 sensor is unable to bring it back at some point it will give up and revert to the predetermined value (back to the map). I have no idea what long term problems (if any) this would create for the catalytic converter.

Main reason that the O2 sensor was ever introduced was to keep the mixture oscillating in the perfect range to allow the cat to do its job. Other than that maps are all the system needs to function properly.

Before we get bogged down in screenshots lets get the concepts straight.

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There are 3 way to make richer the AFR at close loop by reprogamming the bin file in ECU (chip).

1. By disable the Lamda sensor, there is a map in to the chip, (enable Lambda=1, disable lambda =0).
2. By additional at "close loop" values. Also must additional +8-17% the values at open loop. For example if additional at close loop 3%, then needed to additional at open loop 3+5 = 8 %.
3. By corrections in to the values at lambda maps.

For R850 and R1100 GS-R i use the way No2, for R1100RT-RS-S and R1150 single - twins i use the way No3..
For R1110 there is a function by CCP for working by open loop (motronic 2.2 accept the command "disable lambda map" just by CCP 30 87a or "no CCP"), but for motronic 2.4 (R1100S, all R1150) must change a value in to the bin file to make this from "1" to "0".

This is the lambda map from R1150twin, left (stock value), rigth (mod value):



I make these modification at maps, for the best as possible better burn and consumption. Not lean, not rich, best torque (by help mod faster timing ignition) and best consumption. Note that the values are different for the bike has a free air filter, or de-cat or after market system exhaust (needed more fuel) or has mod bigger camshafts, needed much more fuel.

There is no long time map at motronic. There is only correction maps for timing advance.
ECU make "adapt" for few miles, So needed to drive few days for loading all maps in to ECU.
This adapt can repeat from biker when take out the fuse No5 for few seconds.
After refitting the fuse 5, the motronic reset the random memory and reload all maps from the chip agains.

Dear John

John
Bet you didn,t expect your own personal Stalker on here.
You have the patience of a Saint with all the explanations.