All back to normal. Thanks for all the help.
Metal flakes in the final drive oil
- Thread starter Comfy Old Boots
- Start date
So, here we are again!
Replacement box works ok but have play in the rear wheel and complained to motor works who sent me a new bug bearing with seals etc. fair play motor works.
Play was about 1 mm and now at about 5, so I checked the pivot bearings again. All fine.
Anyway, decided to take a look today with a view to changing the big bearing. Took a look. Bearing seems fine but the bearing that fits into the bevel box housing seems very very loose compared to the previous box I replaced.
From what I can see, this is central to keeping the rear wheel play free? So, is this acceptable play in the bearing in the video? Would a new bearing help solve the movement everywhere on the rear wheel? Is it hard to change? I can borrow a bearing puller...
https://vimeo.com/122526548
If the vid does not work here's three pix also
Replacement box works ok but have play in the rear wheel and complained to motor works who sent me a new bug bearing with seals etc. fair play motor works.
Play was about 1 mm and now at about 5, so I checked the pivot bearings again. All fine.
Anyway, decided to take a look today with a view to changing the big bearing. Took a look. Bearing seems fine but the bearing that fits into the bevel box housing seems very very loose compared to the previous box I replaced.
From what I can see, this is central to keeping the rear wheel play free? So, is this acceptable play in the bearing in the video? Would a new bearing help solve the movement everywhere on the rear wheel? Is it hard to change? I can borrow a bearing puller...
https://vimeo.com/122526548
If the vid does not work here's three pix also
bearing is bound to have a lot of play without the outer race being fitted, isn't it?
how much?
how much?
I don't know how much is acceptable! The vid shows how much I've got. I suppose I'll change the big bearing to eliminate that from the equation...
There are no shims in here!!!!!! Any bikes not have shims?!
fatnfast
Registered user
Ive only done 3 big bearings, but everyone of them had shims. It could explain the play your getting. Have you double checked they are not stuck in the outer cover? Maybe someone has been in there before and forgot to put them back. The play on your taper bearing is not a very good indication of its wear. I would look at the rollers and outer race that's still retained in the final drive to see if wear shows up here.
Somewhere on this site is a link showing how to work out what shim thickness you should have. If the bevel box has been re-assemble and the shim missed out it will cause excessive movement at the wheel rim. The shim dictates how far the inner race and bearings are pushed into the outer race on the taper roller you pictured above, too thin a shim will not engage the parts enough and it will flop about like a pea in a bucket. Too thick a shim and it will cause excessive preload on the bearings, this will make them get too hot which will increase the load further and result in failure.
There is normally a small amount of movement at the wheel rim when cold, only about 1-2mm. When checked hot that would have no discernible movement.
You said that initially the new b-box had only about 1mm of movement and that had increased to about 5mm. I think that if the box had been fitted with a new bearing without the shim being fitted it would initially seem fine as the large bearing is a fairly snug fit in the casting. However, as soon as you rode on it the big bearing would get pushed further into the casting by the end loading created by the taper at the opposite end plus the lateral force from the action of the crown and pinion gears and the movement would appear. Maybe the supplier fitted a new big bearing but missed the shim? Either way it needs some work.
On the bright side, once it's sorted properly it should be good for a long, long time.
There is normally a small amount of movement at the wheel rim when cold, only about 1-2mm. When checked hot that would have no discernible movement.
You said that initially the new b-box had only about 1mm of movement and that had increased to about 5mm. I think that if the box had been fitted with a new bearing without the shim being fitted it would initially seem fine as the large bearing is a fairly snug fit in the casting. However, as soon as you rode on it the big bearing would get pushed further into the casting by the end loading created by the taper at the opposite end plus the lateral force from the action of the crown and pinion gears and the movement would appear. Maybe the supplier fitted a new big bearing but missed the shim? Either way it needs some work.
On the bright side, once it's sorted properly it should be good for a long, long time.
Thanks for the detailed responses gents. Very much appreciated.
Let me start by saying that I now have no free play in the rear wheel
However.
Once the the new bearing was installed, I put the bearing crown wheel assembly into the inner bevel box housing and wheel span freely. All good.
Oiled the new seal and pushed it in. No worries there. However, I then tapped the seal down gently until there was no more room for it to go down. At this point, I could not move the bearing assembly. Stuck fast
I said feck it anyway to myself and put the rear wheel on. Put the abs sensor and shims back in and installed and torqued the braked caliber. Took it for a spin round the car park. (No heated garage for me!) and bike feels better.
I'm worried about the way I put in the seal. Did I push it in too far? Should I buy a new one and rip out the old?
Should I just do the warrantee thing and get a different box from motor works? I'm not prepared to pay for a few hundred quids worth of shimming.
A bit of guidance appreciated. In the mean time, I've stuck the dinner in the oven and I'm heading out to see if anything explodes or more hopefully if everything feels good again!
Cheers!
Let me start by saying that I now have no free play in the rear wheel
However.
Once the the new bearing was installed, I put the bearing crown wheel assembly into the inner bevel box housing and wheel span freely. All good.
Oiled the new seal and pushed it in. No worries there. However, I then tapped the seal down gently until there was no more room for it to go down. At this point, I could not move the bearing assembly. Stuck fast
I said feck it anyway to myself and put the rear wheel on. Put the abs sensor and shims back in and installed and torqued the braked caliber. Took it for a spin round the car park. (No heated garage for me!) and bike feels better.
I'm worried about the way I put in the seal. Did I push it in too far? Should I buy a new one and rip out the old?
Should I just do the warrantee thing and get a different box from motor works? I'm not prepared to pay for a few hundred quids worth of shimming.
A bit of guidance appreciated. In the mean time, I've stuck the dinner in the oven and I'm heading out to see if anything explodes or more hopefully if everything feels good again!
Cheers!
Packer, I've reread your post.
Am I correct in thinking, that whilst I've no play now, the bearing is going to move and I will have play again in due course? If so, I'm just going to get them to send me a new box.
Am I correct in thinking, that whilst I've no play now, the bearing is going to move and I will have play again in due course? If so, I'm just going to get them to send me a new box.
It's only supposition but if there are no shims in there it is a distinct possibility.
When you reassemble the box the big bearing gets pushed into the cover. The component providing that force is the taper roller. Once it's all tightened up everything would seem great until load on the taper roller and drive force through the crown wheel and pinion produced the side force to push the bearing further into the cover. That movement is normally blocked by the shim sandwiched between the bearing and the cover casting. No shim means the bearing can move too far into the cover leaving the taper roller loose and floppy at the other end, = movement at the rim.
When you reassemble the box the big bearing gets pushed into the cover. The component providing that force is the taper roller. Once it's all tightened up everything would seem great until load on the taper roller and drive force through the crown wheel and pinion produced the side force to push the bearing further into the cover. That movement is normally blocked by the shim sandwiched between the bearing and the cover casting. No shim means the bearing can move too far into the cover leaving the taper roller loose and floppy at the other end, = movement at the rim.
I 95% understand that. Thanks Packer.
I'll be putting a good few hundred miles on the bike over the weekend, so I should notice play after that.
Either way, as always motor works are exceptionally helpful and will sort me out if I want to send this one back.
I'm determined to get it right though. Big improvement at low speeds now everything is (for the moment) tight.
I'll be putting a good few hundred miles on the bike over the weekend, so I should notice play after that.
Either way, as always motor works are exceptionally helpful and will sort me out if I want to send this one back.
I'm determined to get it right though. Big improvement at low speeds now everything is (for the moment) tight.
Good luck, fortune smiles on the persistent.
For what it's worth, I bought a used final drive from Motorworks. They couldn't tell the mileage on it.
So, when it arrived I took it to bits to examine it. The large ball bearing was fine and smooth. The inner taper bearing on the crown wheel had about the same or maybe a bit more slop than the one in your video. The rollers were fine, and the race was also fine, no burrs or lip.
The only issue is the teeth on the crown wheel and the pinion had wear indicative of high mileage.
I reassembled the unit with the original bearings still in place, only replacing the Large bearing oil seal. it has been running fine for the past 9000 miles, and has no play or leaks.
Ian
So, when it arrived I took it to bits to examine it. The large ball bearing was fine and smooth. The inner taper bearing on the crown wheel had about the same or maybe a bit more slop than the one in your video. The rollers were fine, and the race was also fine, no burrs or lip.
The only issue is the teeth on the crown wheel and the pinion had wear indicative of high mileage.
I reassembled the unit with the original bearings still in place, only replacing the Large bearing oil seal. it has been running fine for the past 9000 miles, and has no play or leaks.
Ian
Thanks Ian. The pinion gear and Crown wheel look to be in good condition. I'll have to suck it and see. Good to know that motor works will exchange if necessary. I'm really hoping I don't have any play in due course.
I'm looking forward to seeing how the city part of my commute feels tomorrow. Below 10 mph as been most unsatisfactory since I got this box. I'll update the thread if o have news. And as the old phrase goes, no news is good news!
I'm looking forward to seeing how the city part of my commute feels tomorrow. Below 10 mph as been most unsatisfactory since I got this box. I'll update the thread if o have news. And as the old phrase goes, no news is good news!
fatnfast
Registered user
Hmm, never had any play on mine when cold (or hot). As I understood there should be no noticable play at all?
The big seal should be fitted flush with the cover.
Now I'm confusing myself and full of doubt.
The bevel box was coated in gasket sealant around the o ring. I didn't use any upon reassembly.
You can see from the photo from you tube that the inner part the crown wheel/ big bearing fits into has no lip.
I'd need to take it apparat again but I'm now convinced that mine had a shim gasket sealed in there. I defiantly had a lip with some black stuff.
So, if the shim can't move, would that induce wear in the bearing?
Sorry for being a numpty but this is my first time doing this and frankly, it's an awful lot to take in and is wrecking my head!
The bevel box was coated in gasket sealant around the o ring. I didn't use any upon reassembly.
You can see from the photo from you tube that the inner part the crown wheel/ big bearing fits into has no lip.
I'd need to take it apparat again but I'm now convinced that mine had a shim gasket sealed in there. I defiantly had a lip with some black stuff.
So, if the shim can't move, would that induce wear in the bearing?
Sorry for being a numpty but this is my first time doing this and frankly, it's an awful lot to take in and is wrecking my head!
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fatnfast
Registered user
There should be no gasket sealant used at all.
Have a look at this and start at post 10 : http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234400 it gives some good clear pics of what it should look like.
When you say the shim cant move do you mean because its covered in gasket goo? You do not want any goo in there.
When all nice and clean and buttoned up there should be no play when cold. Dont forget to put the big seal in last and flush with the cover on the outside.
Dont worry about the taper bearing if it all looks good. I thought I had a duff one a while back as it had some witness wear marks. The play you have is normal. I sent it to Scrimmingers for a rebuild on this occasion as I was flat out at work and needed it sorted quickly. Turns out when he got it it didnt need replacing.
Have a look at this and start at post 10 : http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234400 it gives some good clear pics of what it should look like.
When you say the shim cant move do you mean because its covered in gasket goo? You do not want any goo in there.
When all nice and clean and buttoned up there should be no play when cold. Dont forget to put the big seal in last and flush with the cover on the outside.
Dont worry about the taper bearing if it all looks good. I thought I had a duff one a while back as it had some witness wear marks. The play you have is normal. I sent it to Scrimmingers for a rebuild on this occasion as I was flat out at work and needed it sorted quickly. Turns out when he got it it didnt need replacing.
Have you seen this Video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8_4lpAFLqk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Edit
This video from a K1200LT is pretty good as it shows dismantling and the preload. The drive is very similar to the R11** series.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn5zs8RslF4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8_4lpAFLqk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Edit
This video from a K1200LT is pretty good as it shows dismantling and the preload. The drive is very similar to the R11** series.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn5zs8RslF4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Yup Correct about the seal
"but" Its is a C3 bearing that is used and there should be lateral movement in a C3 bearing when cold so you may have a millimetre (and a bit) at the wheel outer
Its NOT a big problem if there's a "smidgeon" of movement! If there's not that wee bit of free play, the bearing will be under pressure when hot!
"but" Its is a C3 bearing that is used and there should be lateral movement in a C3 bearing when cold so you may have a millimetre (and a bit) at the wheel outer
Its NOT a big problem if there's a "smidgeon" of movement! If there's not that wee bit of free play, the bearing will be under pressure when hot!
Yup Correct about the seal
"but" Its is a C3 bearing that is used and there should be lateral movement in a C3 bearing when cold so you may have a millimetre (and a bit) at the wheel outer
Its NOT a big problem if there's a "smidgeon" of movement! If there's not that wee bit of free play, the bearing will be under pressure when hot!
Owen put your finger in the seal orifice and then move out to the cover edge and then pull your finger towards the FD interior side of the cover
I think from your picture you have a shim in shot!
"but" Its is a C3 bearing that is used and there should be lateral movement in a C3 bearing when cold so you may have a millimetre (and a bit) at the wheel outer
Its NOT a big problem if there's a "smidgeon" of movement! If there's not that wee bit of free play, the bearing will be under pressure when hot!
Owen put your finger in the seal orifice and then move out to the cover edge and then pull your finger towards the FD interior side of the cover
I think from your picture you have a shim in shot!
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