Routes in Southern Austria/northern Italy & Slovenia

John with my settings in basecamp and mapsource if i recalculate the route it does not alter the route. this of course may not be the case for others. if i alter my settings it does change the route but only very slightly. my settings are

Faster time auto routing and no avoidances selected at all and these do not alter the route

leedude03 said:

John with my settings in basecamp and mapsource if i recalculate the route it does not alter the route. this of course may not be the case for others. if i alter my settings it does change the route but only very slightly. my settings are

Faster time auto routing and no avoidances selected at all and these do not alter the route

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Thanks, good to know

Not selecting avoid motorways should not harm this route as there are enough via points to keep you off the A10. Some routes, especially those that use the B99 might be changed as the A10 runs close for quite a distance. I would have to check that there are sufficient points along the route to prevent this. The downside of that is if a device calls out such points the user might get pissed off by so many in a short section of road. This is why I recommend the device settings as I specified. I can then use fewer via points to get the right result-

One other point , de selecting avoid unpaved roads in Slovenia and points east can lead you onto some interesting roads. I came across a few that, despite being public roads, would have challenged Dougie Lampkin! Most start off OK but can turn into boulder strewn nightmares. Fine on a proper off road bike but no fun at all on most road bikes.


John

Modern Garmin GPS devices can cope well with circular and figure of eight routes, without intermediate waypoints.

The most common mistake made nowadays is when the rider is confronted by several magenta lines at once and gets confused.

That's not to suggest that waypoints - to highlight to bods places to stop or definately go through - are not a good idea.

that there are sufficient points along the route to prevent this. The downside of that is if a device calls out such points the user might get pissed off by so many in a short section of road. This is why I recommend the device settings as I specified. I can then use fewer via points to get the right result-

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One of the advantages of using BaseCamp is that shaping points can be made 'unannounced' to avoid this possible problem. It's a neat addition since the move from Mapsource; you should try it

Me? I don't have any sound on, so I won't hear the disembodied voice banging on anyway.


PS When all the routes are complete and checked, I'll create a fresh thread in the Travel section to share all your routes, John. Thank you (and leedude03) for the efforts to create, check and share everything.

Wapping said:

Modern Garmin GPS devices can cope well with circular and figure of eight routes, without intermediate waypoints.

The most common mistake made nowadays is when the rider is confronted by several magenta lines at once and gets confused.

That's not to suggest that waypoints - to highlight to bods places to stop or definately go through - are not a good idea.



One of the advantages of using BaseCamp is that shaping points can be made 'unannounced' to avoid this possible problem. It's a neat addition since the move from Mapsource; you should try it

Me? I don't have any sound on, so I won't hear the disembodied voice banging on anyway.


PS When all the routes are complete and checked, I'll create a fresh thread in the Travel section to share all your routes, John. Thank you (and leedude03) for the efforts to create, check and share everything.

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Thanks for that I will put them into a folder in Dropbox so that anyone can download them. I will do this in batches to make it more manageable.

As regards your comments about modern Garmins coping with circular routes without any waypoints I have to say that is not my experience or that of many of those people who tried out such routes for me. If the start and end point is the same (maybe your hotel) then any deviation from the planned route tends to cause the device to re calculate and take you to the end point by the best route. That means simply turning off the route by a few yards for fuel or coffee can cause this problem. I carried out many tests and concluded that if I put one waypoint mid way along the route the problem was solved. Yes you can turn the recalculating off but these route were designed to help people who were almost always in an unknown to them area. In that situation the recalculate function will return them to the route should they take a wrong turn. In the area concerned you can often use a waypoint knowing that anyone following the route will have no choice but to pass that waypoint. There tends to be only one way over a mountain pass!

I am going to be away for the next few days so it might be a week before I get the first batch ready to post.

John

Aha, the dreaded "But I have automatic recalculate turned ON" wail.

I guess that if they go too far off route, then they'll plummet a 1000 feet or more. After all there is only so many ways up (or down) a mountain pass.... As you rightly observe.

Wapping said:

Aha, the dreaded "But I have automatic recalculate turned ON" wail.

I guess that if they go too far off route, then they'll plummet a 1000 feet or more. After all there is only so many ways up (or down) a mountain pass.... As you rightly observe.

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I don't see why you feel the need to denigrate those who choose to differ from your own view. Personally I find auto recalculate very useful but I don't feel the need to make snide comments about those who do not share this opinion.

I don't doubt your methods work for you, but I don't think what you do has any impact on me so there is no need for me to comment adversely. You on the other hand appear to feel threatened by the way others use one version of Garmin mapping software or another, or how we use the various functions our devices. And now you mock the use of the re calculating option. Why I ask my self. Maybe this is just my psychotherapy training coming through, a fascination with how people function and why they behave in one way or another.

I believe would should all respect the views of others and if we differ should find ways of stating our case that do not involve attempts to belittle those who hold different views.

You have proved yourself to be a very decent sort of chap in offering help and encouragement on here. Please consider adding a little tolerance to your repertoire.


John

John, for heaven's sake, just relax.

I wasn't having a go at you or anyone else. I was only carrying on (in a light hearted way) your comment that there is only one way up a mountain pass, marrying it to the ever present curse of the auto-recalculate, which (some) bods will follow anywhere....ultimately over the edge, probably with the voice instructions going "Off route, recalculating" as they plummet. Not you, of course, you'd never do that.

Now... Take a really deep breath, mate.... Relax.... And breath....

John, you needn't necessarily need to bother to batch the files. Just shove them into one big file called something like 'John's routes around.....'

Bods will then maybe find it easier to mix and match, not least as BaseCamp (peace be upon him) will display all the routes in one go.

Wapping said:

John, for heaven's sake, just relax.

I wasn't having a go at you or anyone else. I was only carrying on (in a light hearted way) your comment that there is only one way up a mountain pass, marrying it to the ever present curse of the auto-recalculate, which (some) bods will follow anywhere....ultimately over the edge, probably with the voice instructions going "Off route, recalculating" as they plummet. Not you, of course.

Now... Take a really deep breath, mate.... Relax.... And breath....

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Richard, your comment I objected to was not an isolated incident, it was part of a pattern recently. I know we disagree about certain things but we can at last remain respectful. Anyway I have taken my tablets, opened a bottle of single malt and have stopped wanting to kill the cat. Can we get back to discussing routing techniques and outcomes.

My point about only one way on a mountain pass was meant to dispel fears people have about waypoints and being forced to go to a waypoint and not being allowed to ignore the waypoint. If I put one on, for instance, the Austrian /Slovenian border on the Wurzen Pass anyone using the route could only use the one road and therefore pass through the waypoint. In all other places I use via points and do sometime even use Basecamp to mark them don't alert. Strangely enough my 390 does not announce via points on route made only in Mapsource, nor does our car Garmin.

Personally I don't see the recalculating function as a curse either. My devices don't do the "off route recalculating" thing, they just sort it out without fuss. My 2610 did do it but sadly it is no more.

John

The Grey One said:

Hopefully this link will work, please let me know


https://www.dropbox.com/s/rkqjn899x2h826b/Austria, Slovenia, Italy 1.gpx?dl=0


John

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John, on a Mac running BaseCamp (peace be upon it)

1. Your file in Dropbox is called Austria, Slovenia, Italy 1.gpx

2. On download, the file name and - more importantly - its extension changes to: Austria.txt This changes it into a text file, rendering it useless. It's something that happens and it's not unique.

For anyone with the same problem, here's a possibly easy way to resolve it.... There are others, too....

A. Click on https://www.dropbox.com/s/rkqjn899x2...y 1.gpx?dl=0

B. Do not choose 'Download'. Chose instead 'Save to my Dropbox'. This of course only works if you have a Dropbox account. If you haven't got one, get one. It's free and it's not (yet) illegal. If you insist on not having one as bad men can steal your identity or your pet cat, tough.

C. The file will then appear in your Dropbox account, with the .gpx extension in place. Hoorah! they cry

D. Open BaseCamp (peace be upon it) or Mapsource, if you prefer it (as I don't want to offend anyone and want to be equally inclusive, respecting personal choice without possible inference that some old codger can't cope with BaseCamp as that would be entirely wrong)

E. Click on the file in Dropbox and it will open straight up. Job done, chill, kicking back with a single malt (what else) and bathe in your inspired genius.

John, and anyone else who is even remotely interested, the route looks fine in BaseCamp (peace be upon it) on a Mac as a 160 mile circular route, with some waypoints and some shaping points. Thank you.


Now, gentle reader back to the story: BaseCamp (peace be upon it) can't estimate the total time taken but this is only because of the way the route is created or maybe because of some unknown (at least to me) alteration that took place. For anyone desperate to know, here's how to display the estimated time, whoooo hoo they cry:

Get Info

Via points, highlight them all and convert them all to Announced shaping points. Leave them as Announced points if you like or change all / some back to unannounced according to personal preference. Either way, don't forget or you might start to bitch and moan if and when you ever get around to riding the route for youself.

Click recalculate. This, dear reader, has some potential perils built into it as what happens next might well depend on how many shaping and waypoints John built into his route and - much more importantly - YOUR preferences on YOUR Mac. Don't moan if it all goes tits up, just learn to suck it up and not use all the goddamned 'Avoid this, avoid that, favour this, favour that, send me up a goat track' options Garmin presented YOU with to make YOUR life easier.

If all is well, you'll then be told that the entire route should take about 4.5 hours. Whether it does or not depends on a host of other factors, too many to dwell on here. When I load it into my Nav V, it cuts the estimated journey time.... as it knows I am a biking god... I think that's what it knows, anyway. It probably just gets it wrong, like when it can't find Ypres, as it's a crappy device, sold at premium price to unsuspecting knobs like me.

Have fun. Play around. You (probably) can't break it... much.

Wapping said:

John, you needn't necessarily need to bother to batch the files. Just shove them into one big file called something like 'John's routes around.....'

Bods will then maybe find it easier to mix and match, not least as BaseCamp (peace be upon him) will display all the routes in one go.

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I'm doing them in batches for my convenience and because if I wait until all the routes are done it could take some while!

And to answer some of the points in your later post

I think the change of file name thing is a MAC problem, I have never experienced it on a PC. I create routes on one machine and share them to two others without this problem. I have shared routes to lots of other people using a PC with no such problem

Your time calculation is all but pointless. Possibly are skilled racer taking no notice of speed limits could do that route in 4.5 hours. It is a route I have ridden both on my own and leading groups. The groups varied from being made up of people who wanted to dawdle and admire the scenery to a few who just wanted to ride almost non stop. It needs and wants an entire day. There are many tight sections that even for the best riders bring average speeds right down. The route passes through some of the most stunning scenery anywhere, to not stop from time to time is a terrible waste.

I know you don't like using routing preferences Richard but plenty of others do. My experience is that most people have no great interest in the finer points of planning routes. Setting these preferences is the simplest way for most people to be able to enjoy using such a route. They are on holiday, they don't want to end up on motorway if they take a wrong turn-especially in Austria were you can end up with a large fine should you not have a vignette. One tick on a box and this won't happen.

I suspect you might take a different view had you spent as much time as I have loading routes for people to use and finding that at least half of these people have never planned or downloaded a route for themselves. A large number didn't know there were preferences to set in the first place. This often came to light when people complained of being taken on roads they didn't want to be on. I have had people thank me just for showing them how to stop the device taking them on Motorways. I understand how expert users such as yourself may want to not use this facility but for the great majority of people they make this easier.

John

Just on a side note of what Wapping has eluded to, with reference to recalculating the route, just make a copy of the route before recalculating then if it all goes pear shaped you can start all over with the copy, alternatively you can go to edit in either mapsource or basecamp and click undo change and it should in theory take it back to what it was before you hit recalculate, this you can do multiple times to revert many changes after altering a route and getting it wrong.

Thank you for the kind offer John, yes your routes are welcome. I stayed with you in September 2014 and found your routes excellent. I am revisiting again in September this year: can you tell me, did you pass on your routing information to Willem?
Alan R

The Grey One said:

I'm doing them in batches for my convenience and because if I wait until all the routes are done it could take some while!
John

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Great. Just trying to save you some effort. Batch away, old sport.

The Grey One said:

I think the change of file name thing is a MAC problem, I have never experienced it on a PC. I create routes on one machine and share them to two others without this problem. I have shared routes to lots of other people using a PC with no such problem

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Yup, it's a Mac problem, for sure. It occurs quite regularly, to the consternation of many Mac users. That's why I explained what I was using and the solution; Leedude has already tested it out on a PC, with no such problems, that we know. You asked others to test it; so I did, just for you. I could of course had done it, anticipating the possible problem, fixed it for myself and just keep quiet. But that would have not of been very bikermate friendly in the GPS section, nor would it have helped you when some poor sap of a Mac user moaned that your link was shite, mate.

The Grey One said:

Your time calculation is all but pointless.

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I know. I only told bods in case they were even remotely interested (sharing the knowledge and all that good stuff bods bang on about) in case they ever wanted to know how to do it. Many bods love time, hence all the "What time will we stop?" questions; modern Garmin devices will answer that question in real time, continuously updating the information as the ride progresses. Used properly with set waypoints - tea, coffee, lunch, viewing stops, for instance - it's really good; used badly (or not at all) it's crap and pointless, as with so many things in life. Bods can, if they chose, start to use the software's ability to do all sorts of other things, like putting in stop over times at the ice cream shack and gawping in awe at the wonders of the panorama or even going for a lash at the stink-a-lot-loos at whatever border crossing it was but that's advanced stuff; all but pointless in this context.

The Grey One said:

I know you don't like using routing preferences Richard but plenty of others do. My experience is that most people have no great interest in the finer points of planning routes. Setting these preferences is the simplest way for most people to be able to enjoy using such a route. They are on holiday, they don't want to end up on motorway if they take a wrong turn-especially in Austria were you can end up with a large fine should you not have a vignette. One tick on a box and this won't happen.

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I have nothing at all against routing preferences, nor do I have any illusion that many bikers want to do anything but have someone plot all their routes for them, including all the hotels, cafes, must do sites and twisty roads for maybe a thousand miles or more. Again, I was only trying to warn the unwary biker about the potential hazards of recalculation. They can have as many preferences as they like and make them different between their computer and devices, if it suits them. Your explanation is exactly why Garmin went to a whole heap of trouble to create and offer them, making them even more advanced in the latest devices that will generate 'Hilly and twisty routes' for bods. That they go on to create some bods more problems (and moans) is just an unfortunate by-product of progress, I guess. Leedude, who is good at working with the software, has his all turned off, I guess so he reduces the chances of variables when plotting routes. I do the same. You set yours to exclude motorways by default, that's fine, too.

The Grey One said:

I suspect you might take a different view had you spent as much time as I have loading routes for people to use and finding that at least half of these people have never planned or downloaded a route for themselves. A large number didn't know there were preferences to set in the first place. This often came to light when people complained of being taken on roads they didn't want to be on. I have had people thank me just for showing them how to stop the device taking them on Motorways. I understand how expert users such as yourself may want to not use this facility but for the great majority of people they make this easier.

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Welcome to my world... What you say only serves to confirm what I warned the unwary about vis-a-vis preferences; it does little or nothing to deny it. Used properly they are remarkably handy; used badly - like recalculate, and a host of the other bells and whistles functions now available - they can be a nightmare for the unwary or just plain lazy biker.

I well remember several of your posts where you commented (in very un-matey terms) on your - paying - guests' ignorance of how to use their GPS devices, up to and including routing themselves to Malta in the middle of the Mediterranean * and the many frustrations it caused you. That's life, mate.





* way further than the 7 km (and however many meters of elevation) misrepresentation of Austrian Malta in your Bing maps rebuke, when some poor fellow had the temerity to suggest a possible method of generating a GPS location code (or whatever it was) in answer to the problem of using BaseCamp (peace be upon it) to locate anything beyond an error message.

leedude03 said:

Just on a side note of what Wapping has eluded to, with reference to recalculating the route, just make a copy of the route before recalculating .....you can do multiple times to revert many changes after altering a route and getting it wrong.

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Indeed ... or just download it again .... and / or display the original and the (hopefully) unadulterated version side by side. With the latter method, it helps if you change the colour of one so any differences stand out.

Have two open side by side, now that may just confuse people working with one is sometimes more than some folk feel ok with but two, thats a big ask.. and then adding another colour my god i can just see the looks of confusion. of course this is all said in jest.

leedude03 said:

Have two open side by side....just confuse people.....of course this is all said in jest.

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.............I well remember several of your posts where you commented (in very un-matey terms) on your - paying - guests' ignorance of how to use their GPS devices, up to and including routing themselves to Malta in the middle of the Mediterranean * and the many frustrations it caused you. That's life, mate.





I think you will find I was commenting on those who blame Garmin or their device for getting them lost when it was their own lack of knowledge. Your use of the phrase paying guests would imply that I should have some kind of deference towards these good folk. Should I have tugged my forelock and said nothing to help them for fear of being seen as not knowing my place? I do not mock ignorance (except when it is wilful). Throughout my time there I welcomed guests as equals and treated them as friends. In my world it is not an act of friendship to say "there there did the nasty SatNav get you lost again" when I know exactly what mistakes had been made. By showing guest how, for instance,they could find a hotel on the Garmin database and use that instead I saved them a whole lot of grief in future trips.

In the case you mention people were putting in just our Austrian post code and setting off from the UK without checking exactly were they would be taken. As you know this works pretty well in the UK, if you get to that point your intended destination will be very close by. In most of mainland Europe postcodes take you to a district-our postcode covered an area some 35 kms long by the width of the valley. In our case the SatNav will take you to the middle of the district, several kms from where you want to be. In other cases one post code can cover a fair sized town. I think the reason that virtually stopped happening was precisely because I mention it repeatedly on forums such as this and through our own social media channels and information sheets sent out when people booked.

And I think you find that my comments regarding Bing were directed at the maps not the user. I don't know about you but one of the ways I judge a set of maps is by looking on those maps at an area I know really well, usually where I live. In the case of Bing they are seriously flawed that part of Austria and looking at my now home village in Worcestershire they also include errors. No map is perfect,although the Ordnance Survey ones come close, but having a village name 7kms off is not really acceptable in my book.

John

Great, mate. Crack on.

Loading the first route into Mapsource

I have had feedback from someone who pointed out that his Mapsource altered the last part of the route in a strange way. On investigating I found I could get the same effect by going to the Mapsource preferences,-routing tab and moving the road selection slider to the extreme right. This tells Mapsource you prefer highways (I think this is American for motorways!) and this causes the route to change just so as you can use a very short section of motorway which mucks up that last section.

I guess I can modify the route to include more via points to prevent this although, given we are talking about a scenic route in the Alps, just why anyone would instruct Mapsource that they prefer motorways will forever remain a mystery to me.

This issue does not appear to happen in my version of Basecamp. I do not have any of the major road avoidances ticked and the route re calculates exactly as planned. I an't check it on a Mac. Maybe my good friend Wapping will oblige.

If anyone else has comments or feedback on this route please let me know. It might just prevent problems with the other routes I hope to share.

John