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Thread: Safety Glance / Lifesaver?

  1. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delboy777 View Post
    So no "straight lining" roundabouts (in the absence of other traffic) while exiting straight ahead ?
    Not for DAS Del, the examiner would fail them. Straight lining comes in for more advanced training.
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  2. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Snooty View Post
    Not for DAS Del, the examiner would fail them. Straight lining comes in for more advanced training.
    If straight lining, when safe to do so, is fine for advanced training ( because a bike is at its safest when upright and moving in a straight line) why don't the DSA allow it? Surely that's a bit of a contradiction. I'm genuinely interested btw


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  3. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delboy777 View Post
    If straight lining, when safe to do so, is fine for advanced training ( because a bike is at its safest when upright and moving in a straight line) why don't the DSA allow it? Surely that's a bit of a contradiction. I'm genuinely interested btw


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  4. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    'Advanced riders' like their heirarchies
    *hierarchies
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  5. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike O View Post
    *hierarchies
    Auto spell check/correction

  6. #22
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    I straight line this one almost every day - approach from left, straight over to A14 slip road - just glance to my left before taking my exit as there is occasionally someone who is going straight over on my near side.
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  7. #23
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    Two quick points on roundabouts and signalling generally:

    I am finding more and more drivers approaching roundabout with all four exits into dual carriageways, arriving in the right lane in order to turn left into the outside lane of the road they are entering, especially when there is traffic backed up in the inside lane. I think this is crazy as those who are going straight across the roundabout will use the inside lane but cross the path of those turning left from the outside. I fear that "those in a hurry" simply take this action without thinking.

    And one of my "pet hates" is how few people signal at all around any junctions. No thought for road users, for pedestrians or cyclists. Just think how much better traffic would flow at junctions if everyone was encouraged to signal their intention. We first learnt with "mirror, signal, manoeuvre" and now it is just "mirror (I presume) and manoeuvre".

  8. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaedrusMC View Post

    And in reality, the possibility of being surprised by a motorcycle/moped/cyclist right behind you is minimal, as you will have been scanning your mirrors as part of normal riding. But there is always that chance that your last mirror scan missed something or that something has developed since then, no? And in a test scenario, unless the candidate does perform some sort of glance to the left, how will the tester know that the candidate is making any observation to check for those possibilities? For roundabouts with a single approach lane, we'd be positioned to the left of the lane, closing down any "invitation space", so perhaps less of an issue then, no?
    There is a problem with moving to the left of the lane for first exit left - you may be closing down the "invitation space" on the left but you are opening it up on the right. This may allow a vehicle to come alongside you and you will now have two vehicles moving off together sharing a single lane space with the car just inches away from the bike. Sadly, as we all know, there are complete dickheads on the road who do not respect a biker's space and will take advantage. We train all of our students to dominate their road position in the centre of the lane for all roundabouts regardless of exit as this is the safest position for them and it prevents this scenario. Obviously we train them to move left or right of their lane for junctions.

    Your anecdote about the student who failed for taking too many rear observations and not paying attention to the road ahead is a great example.
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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Snooty View Post
    There is a problem with moving to the left of the lane for first exit left - you may be closing down the "invitation space" on the left but you are opening it up on the right. This may allow a vehicle to come alongside you and you will now have two vehicles moving off together sharing a single lane space with the car just inches away from the bike. Sadly, as we all know, there are complete dickheads on the road who do not respect a biker's space and will take advantage. We train all of our students to dominate their road position in the centre of the lane for all roundabouts regardless of exit as this is the safest position for them and it prevents this scenario. Obviously we train them to move left or right of their lane for junctions.

    Your anecdote about the student who failed for taking too many rear observations and not paying attention to the road ahead is a great example.
    Interesting. Good point.

  10. #26
    As an instructor with Rapid, I probably spend more time undoing shoulder checks and life savers than i do asking them to be done. In fact i'd say not probably but definitely.

    I see a terrible culture that in particular is born within the IAM / RoSPA groups of hamming up side roads, parked vehicles, roundabouts etc. I guess it comes from the observer firstly demonstrating 'what hazards he's weighing up' and then that moves into the observee being up front and 'showing the observer' that he's seen the hazard.

    So what we then get, is a self perpetuating culture that is look down every feckin' side road, lifesavers before and after every overtake, five coming onto and leaving the roundabout etc.

    MORE IS NOT BETTER.

    Quality, where and when is where it's at!

    So whats wrong with doing a lot?

    The answer to that is that your concentration, your brain, your everything .... should be hundreds of yards down the road. Thats where your attention is, or should be.
    If you live a life of shoulder checks, your attention (so by that I mean where your brain is and how far up the road your'e looking) will generally be much shorter. Your lines will be more staccato, your flow will be rough, because your vision is short.

    Mirrors!! Live in your mirrors. Like every six or seven seconds. Do I straight line roundabouts? Of course. Constantly. Do I shoulder check before i do it? Once in a blue moon. But for 99 per cent of the time, I know what's behind me because I live in my mirrors. Do I life saver coming off a roundabout ? Very rarely. Because i know whats behind me and where they are.

    probably the only 'chess move' black and white shoulder check I will always do is joining a motorway from the slip.



    I'll dig out some ride reports covering this subject .....

  11. #27
    NB ....

    For the likes of lord snooty and Mellors who DSA instruct (I did it for seven years before joining the fuzz) .... it's a completely different ball game! If I took a DSA test and rode as i do, I'd probably fail for positioning and no life savers ...

  12. #28
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    If it's of benefit do it, if it isn't don't, simples.

  13. #29
    This is a quick copy and paste from somebodies report a year or so ago. Ive changed the names ...

    Whilst it's more directed at training and observing, it's relevant to this discussion ....




    In this section Daphne, we traditionally pick on a couple of things for you to work on, and the first one is a good subject matter for all the club members and observers, and that is this culture of ‘Look .. can you see me looking’. So, although you were only slightly guilty of it (beginning of the day and first thing after lunch), let me take the chance to throw my comments into the forum, and they are very much directed at the training process in general and not just you! (I think you said that Daisy Duke would read the reports - so welcome Daisy ..!). I feel a rant coming on Daphne, but I stress it’s not directed at you!
    I’ll cut to the chase - I hate it! I think it’s terribly detrimental to our
    riding, it (ironically) encourages short vision, short attention, and it destroys everything we look for that is good planning, long lazy lines and generally putting our brain 100’s of metres down the road - usually as far as we can see.
    Having been in the world of training for many years, (about 8 as a DSA instructor) I completely understand why this culture exists. (I used to promote it myself with learner riders going for their basic test). I get completely, why an associate would ham up his hazard perception like Marcel Marceax, and why an observer, on a demonstration ride, would do the same to an associate.
    The danger is, you build a vicious circle in the whole club world where everybody develops this style of staring into side roads that we’re now on top of, or having three looks into an empty roundabout and then two life savers to leave, staring into petrol station forecourts and driveways as we pass them.
    Is this such a problem? Yes! It destroys long vision.
    As good motorcyclists, we’re chucking our brain as far as we can see. We’re putting our brain somewhere five or ten seconds before our bike gets there. It’s that very concept that builds the ‘quiet efficiency is the hallmark ... ‘. It’s that concept that builds the swan on the water, the lazy rider who is ruthlessly efficient, yet looks like he’s asleep. All of that comes about by giving our brain time to process information and to make decisions. It ALL comes down to long vision.
    By ‘demonstrating hazards’ we bring down our attention, our concentration, to a matter of a few feet in front of our wheels. That then of course promotes a ‘staccato’ ride that is often abrupt and jagged, we see things late and then we rush to deal with them, we end up tying ourselves in knots, all in the name of ‘I’m showing you that I’ve thought about what I’m passing right now’. Because our vision is short and all wrapped up with demonstrating these things we’re on top of, we loose flowing lines and early planning.
    The other irony of course, is that if yer looking into it and ‘dealing’ with it as you pass it - well it’s all too late anyway - that’s why we chuck our brain those hundreds of yards ahead - that’s where we ‘deal with it’. It’s that long distance that creates wonderful smooth flow.
    So how do we resolve this and how do we break the culture?
    Firstly, knowledge is power. You need to all collectively as observers and as student associates acknowledge the difficult conundrum of teaching hazard perception without falling into this ‘demonstration’ trap. It’s a bit like mirror checks - I can look perfectly well in my mirrors with a flick of the eye. But you, behind me won’t know that because you won’t see my head turning. Similarly I will deal with the driveways, the side roads, the roundabouts as early as I can which may sometimes give the wrong appearance of sailing straight past something like I’ve missed it. So as long as somewhere along the line, a discussion takes place amongst you all that covers this idea, then at least you’re all aware of it. How about this as a topic of discussion at the next observers meeting?
    Secondly, an idea for the observers. The reason the bike instructors in my world ride close, is to feel what the rider in front is doing. If I’m close, then my throttle will match what you are doing. If you're backing off the gas just a touch as you approach that blind junction - I’ll feel it. Likewise if you’re barreling past a blind junction I’ll feel that. And of course if you barrelling past an open junction that’s completely empty with no traffic in it, I’ll feel that too. A good observer / instructor can feel what your thinking by riding with you. But ... !! My health and safety umbrella kicks in! Riding close of course has its pitfalls, and you need to be switched on and very safe. How common are the stories of one bike going into the back of another at a roundabout or the like where there is misunderstanding - one bike being hesitant, the other seeing it good to go ... !
    What I often do is ride close at the very outset and get an early understanding of someones riding, and once I’ve got that, I’ll drop back a bit. I’ll very rarely ride directly behind them and of course your vision needs to be very much of the ‘wide angle’ that we spoke about - riding your own ride but ‘seeing’ the bike in front too.
    So, whilst that’s another idea for you to discuss amongst yourselves in your observer meetings, I can’t sit here and actively encourage you all to ride up the chuff of the bloke infant!! (A disaster waiting to happen!!).

  14. #30
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    Good one Giles, as ever



    http://www.adventure.gs/Adventure.GS/Riding_Hints.html

    Part/page two covers shoulder checks

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  15. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Micky View Post
    Good one Giles, as ever



    http://www.adventure.gs/Adventure.GS/Riding_Hints.html

    Part/page two covers shoulder checks

    These boys have a lot to learn Micky .....

  16. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giles View Post
    As an instructor with Rapid, I probably spend more time undoing shoulder checks and life savers than i do asking them to be done. In fact i'd say not probably but definitely.

    I see a terrible culture that in particular is born within the IAM / RoSPA groups of hamming up side roads, parked vehicles, roundabouts etc. I guess it comes from the observer firstly demonstrating 'what hazards he's weighing up' and then that moves into the observee being up front and 'showing the observer' that he's seen the hazard.

    So what we then get, is a self perpetuating culture that is look down every feckin' side road, lifesavers before and after every overtake, five coming onto and leaving the roundabout etc.

    MORE IS NOT BETTER.

    Quality, where and when is where it's at
    Giles

    I'm an amateur not not a professional like yourself, what you say clearly makes sense, but do you think the problem lies with the 'passing a test mentality' DAS, ROSPA or IAM the standards and examiners seem to vary massively, the lifesaver / shoulder check can and does make a difference to passing 'the test' I have been examined and tested by serving offices from four forces all of them have had different opinions about this. One of the reasons I gave up being and instructor, as you end up teaching your students to pass a test dependent on the likes of what the examiner they would get.

    Living in your mirrors is the best advice anyone can get. Without blowing smoke up your arse sir, you seam to be of a brand of real life practical riders not pass a test tick box robots like many of your retired colleagues, but is is them that have created the pass a test culture. IMHO

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