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Thread: Safety Glance / Lifesaver?

  1. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Roadcraft-Rider View Post
    Giles

    I'm an amateur not not a professional like yourself, what you say clearly makes sense, but do you think the problem lies with the 'passing a test mentality' DAS, ROSPA or IAM the standards and examiners seem to vary massively, the lifesaver / shoulder check can and does make a difference to passing 'the test' I have been examined and tested by serving offices from four forces all of them have had different opinions about this. One of the reasons I gave up being and instructor, as you end up teaching your students to pass a test dependent on the likes of what the examiner they would get.

    Living in your mirrors is the best advice anyone can get. Without blowing smoke up your arse sir, you seam to be of a brand of real life practical riders not pass a test tick box robots like many of your retired colleagues, but is is them that have created the pass a test culture. IMHO

    Where does the problem lie ? Oooo blimey that's a difficult one to answer.

    I think as people want to improve their riding (which they should ..!) they can be suckered into thinking that to be a good, 'advanced' (I hate that phrase ... sounds really pompous!) rider they need to be busy.
    Sometimes, there will be situations on the road where there is nothing to do. Nothing! But the advanced guys that I sometimes see still want to 'do something' because .... 'hey .... I'm an advanced rider .... I don't just sit here and do nothing'. So they ride down the road like Animal the drummer from the muppet show being really 'busy' all the time. Where's the swan on the water?? Where's the quiet efficiency? Wheres the KGB assassin that comes in under the radar, ruthlessly does his job and then slips away un noticed .. ?!

    So I think that that's one problem; a misconception that better is busier. (It is ... but it's your brain thats busier, not your neck!)

    Re different instructors, then yes, i totally agree. It's very difficult.

    My advice to anyone on here would be, go and ride with as many good riders or instructors as you can, be a sponge, soak up the bits you like and discard the bits you don't.
    Would Micky and I be the same rider? Probably very very similar. Would we have views on things that are just slightly different? (lines, off siding, overtaking past junctions ... ) yeah probably. And that's fine.
    The sponges job is to take all the bits from the the different riders he goes out with that he likes, and to make his own style. Style is good.

    In my career i was trained by two very different riders. One was a bit lairy, very very quick and a bit of a boy racer, and one was the classic traffic cop swan on the water and looked like he was asleep half the time. Not as quick, but never put a foot wrong - 'quiet efficiency is the hall mark of the expert'
    I took bits from both of them and chucked the bits that i didn't like.

    Do that, and just concentrate on what feels right to you and on becoming a really good bike rider, and don't get hung up on whether it's a Gold or a silver or a bronze.


  2. #34
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    As (thus far) most students I've had have had RSA tests looming, all lessons have been focused (from the student's perspective) on that, although them riding well is my long-term, long-lasting goal for them, and a goal I've encouraged them to aim for regardless of their test.

    Do you guys find it tricky to be teaching a novice student one set of behaviours, when if they took advanced lessons later on, you'd be teaching them a different - perhaps contradictory - set of behaviours?

  3. #35
    I think thats a question for Lord Snooty and Mellors if they do 'post test' training. I taught DSA stuff many many years ago (over twenty years ago!) but not since.

    Your ethos of teach them to ride a bike well and then they'll pass a test is right though. certainly in my day that would be there input from me, along with 'I've got to teach you some shite too that the dsa want, so we'll do that too ... '


    * obviously, we never touched on stuff like positioning and straight lining roundabouts etc ... !

  4. #36
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    Excuse me guys, you all know I am thick already, perhaps you can help make me one snippet less thick....what is a DAS please?

  5. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Rat View Post
    Excuse me guys, you all know I am thick already, perhaps you can help make me one snippet less thick....what is a DAS please?
    I suspect it's Direct Access Scheme?

  6. #38
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    I'm slightly concerned that this thread may deter anyone considering seeking some advanced training from actually doing so. As usual, those of you who are professional trainers cannot resist sniping at other trainers or training styles (mainly IAM it seems)

    I agree that there are some trainers/observers in both IAM and Rospa who are inflexible and set in their ways - older ones I'd suggest - but surely you all recognise and agree that the main aim of both organisations is to produce a 'thinking rider' who constantly assesses the situation and hazards around him/her and responds appropriately - not by deploying some techniques such as a shoulder check, learnt by rote and applied in every situation.

    The end product should be someone who can ride progressively, well and above all, safely

  7. #39
    A life saver is called that because it is what it is ! I'm with Giles , we're going forward to that's where the majority of the observations should be to gather the info to make the ride plan. Considering a lifesaver / shoulder check is important in certain places, but it all depends on the situation.

  8. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Giles View Post
    NB ....

    For the likes of lord snooty and Mellors who DSA instruct (I did it for seven years before joining the fuzz) .... it's a completely different ball game! If I took a DSA test and rode as i do, I'd probably fail for positioning and no life savers ...
    Well yes and no, there's been a slight opening of eyes in recent years.
    One of the examiners we use very frequently is also an ex traffic cop and encourages us to teach students to ride as we would ..... yes there's still occasions where an observation is insisted on but really needs to see a tidy ride with obvious forward planning ie. a thinking rider.

    It may seem to many the DSA way of training is rigid regarding observations, I'd disagree, the last thing we want are robotic nodding donkeys but we also need to bare in mind many riders have not yet aquired full awareness of hazards, hence systematic observations (as highlighted by the OP) as awareness develops, many observations are of course deemed unnecessary.

    I've had a good run over the past 10 months or so with every single student of mine passing both Mod1 and Mod2 at their first attempt, that could change today of course

    When taking riders out on what I call 'post test progression' as I hate the word advanced, then of course riders should now be making their own decisions regarding any observations
    KEA

  9. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by mw3230 View Post
    I'm slightly concerned that this thread may deter anyone considering seeking some advanced training from actually doing so. As usual, those of you who are professional trainers cannot resist sniping at other trainers or training styles (mainly IAM it seems)

    I agree that there are some trainers/observers in both IAM and Rospa who are inflexible and set in their ways - older ones I'd suggest - but surely you all recognise and agree that the main aim of both organisations is to produce a 'thinking rider' who constantly assesses the situation and hazards around him/her and responds appropriately - not by deploying some techniques such as a shoulder check, learnt by rote and applied in every situation.

    The end product should be someone who can ride progressively, well and above all, safely
    I suspect this is aimed at me

    Look, I am a big fan of the riding clubs and organisations, they put me on the right track thirty years ago and pretty much started my whole love affair with bikes. And yes, I would implore anybody to join a local club and get stuck in.

    My frustration is that actually i see more ride by rote as you described it, than i do thinking riders, and I'm constantly having a battle with them to ditch the 'dot to dot' and 'paint by numbers' style. There does seem to be a hazard / tick box style sometimes and in many of my training days, it's that system of dot to dot that I try and iron out.

    So i certainly don't have a beef with them, i care .. and that's why i'm passionate about good riding and trying to do it well.


  10. #42
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    Giles, I understand that you want riders to think for themselves, but do you not start with THE SYSTEM then once they have the idea then make them think out of the box. I did the Skill for life and was disallusioned with my tutors but passed, then a few years later RoSPA and felt my second tutor was teaching me to think for myself. The difference being being lifesavers required when appropriate. One other point was that when I took the second RoSPA I was challenged as to why I did a lifesaver when I was leaving a reduced speed limit, after a discussion I had to agree it was a habit.

  11. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by ymfb View Post
    .... but do you not start with THE SYSTEM then once they have the idea then make them think out of the box....
    Yes absolutely, how do you teach grey areas without it becoming confusing from day one.

    i don't ski and never have been. if I were to go, I'd want black and white instruction from my ski instructor. 'When you ride across a cambered surface like this ... weight this leg' 'when you want to turn right ... bend this knee' ... or whatever you should do !

    What I don't want to hear is 'Well you could do this or you could do that - it depends .. what do you think?' "I don't know I'm new at all this - you tell me !!'

    So Yep, teaching flexibility, grey areas, when to and when not to is a constant battle of 'will this help them or actually be more confusing'.


    One of the reasons that coaching, in my eyes, is successful, is that you can ride and ride, share ideas, go back over the ride and de-brief it. What the coach really wants is the student to start thinking the right process and the right decisions. And on one hazard, roundabout, junction set of bends ... whatever ... that thought process and 'the right thing to do here' might be completely different to another similar set of circumstances. And it's getting them to see why in the first circumstances we did X, but in the next similar circumstance the right thing to do was Y.

    That as you say, is difficult to teach from day one, and you may well be better teaching black and white to start, and then undoing stuff.

  12. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giles View Post
    I suspect this is aimed at me

    Look, I am a big fan of the riding clubs and organisations, they put me on the right track thirty years ago and pretty much started my whole love affair with bikes. And yes, I would implore anybody to join a local club and get stuck in.

    My frustration is that actually i see more ride by rote as you described it, than i do thinking riders, and I'm constantly having a battle with them to ditch the 'dot to dot' and 'paint by numbers' style. There does seem to be a hazard / tick box style sometimes and in many of my training days, it's that system of dot to dot that I try and iron out.

    So i certainly don't have a beef with them, i care .. and that's why i'm passionate about good riding and trying to do it well.

    Fair point!

  13. #45
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    Advanced riding of any kind, involves one important thing. Thinking

    Why am I in this road position ???

    I've taught monkeys to pass the dsa test, and sadly same for IAM too.

    Where is biggest hazard to me, how do I deal with it safely ? That is ultimately what counts, not how many lifesavers I got in.

    Up here in gods country, if you straightline during IAM test you'll be failed, same with off siding; as Tulliallan doesn't do it/aporove !

    Having had many dsa instructor's both cars and bikes, in general, they are arrogant twats who do not think they have anything to learn/ everything they are shown is WRONG. Most only do it so they can stick the relevant sticker up and charge more.

    Then there is the minority who want to improve their knowledge and skills, they make the hassle of the other ones worthwhile.

    There are good and bad in all schools of training, BUT any training that might keep you alive is worth it.

    Advanced riding, paying for the accident you didn't have !

  14. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tractors are go View Post
    Advanced riding of any kind, involves one important thing. Thinking

    Why am I in this road position ???

    I've taught monkeys to pass the dsa test, and sadly same for IAM too.

    Where is biggest hazard to me, how do I deal with it safely ? That is ultimately what counts, not how many lifesavers I got in.

    Up here in gods country, if you straightline during IAM test you'll be failed, same with off siding; as Tulliallan doesn't do it/aporove !

    Having had many dsa instructor's both cars and bikes, in general, they are arrogant twats who do not think they have anything to learn/ everything they are shown is WRONG. Most only do it so they can stick the relevant sticker up and charge more.

    Then there is the minority who want to improve their knowledge and skills, they make the hassle of the other ones worthwhile.

    There are good and bad in all schools of training, BUT any training that might keep you alive is worth it.

    Advanced riding, paying for the accident you didn't have !
    Im not certain where you are but i can tell you its perfectly acceptable indeed its encouraged by our local examiner to straight line r/bouts provided its safe to do so. Offsiding ?? Thats a no no but thats down to the culture of the police way of doing it in Scotland


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  15. #47
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    I totally agree, my view is; if it is safe, then what's the problem ??

    Do i explain straight lining and off siding, depends on the associate. Some it is a step too much, bit like countersteering some get it others don't.

    Thats why it is about the individual and not learning by rote.

    Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk

  16. #48
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    What's "offsiding", please?

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