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Thread: IAM training/"making progress"

  1. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShakeyBMW View Post
    Did he give you the opportunity to explain your decision?
    He did, and he accepted my explanation.

  2. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike O View Post
    Making maximum safe progress is an excellent method of showing whether a rider is assessing his or her hazards fully and correctly.

    In the police, you make maximum progress, because even a few seconds could be the difference between saving somebody's life or not - clearly this isn't the case for IAM candidate riders under test.

    When candidates ask what maximum safe progress is, I tell them that, when we are in 30, I expect to be doing 30 unless they can articulate to me in the debrief why we were going slower. I expect the same in any other speed limit - and of their decision to overtake or not. "I didn't feel like it" is not an acceptable reason during the test - although you are free to do whatever you want afterwards, whether you pass or fail.

    I have probably failed more people for failing to make maximum safe progress than for any other single reason, over the years...
    Agree with this but we don't know what the OP's reasons for not overtaking were. If there was a clear view of the road ahead and he could get the overtake done without breaking the speed limit then we would expect him to get it done. If there were circumstances causing him to hold back he should be given the opportunity to explain his thinking.
    Every day is a school day on a bike

  3. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShakeyBMW View Post
    well, he's obviously got his police head on because the overtake is your decision, not his. Did he give you the opportunity to explain your decision?
    The decision to overtake is always that of the rider (I'm not sure how you could make it otherwise ) - but the analysis that led up to that decision is definitely the point at question in the debrief. If the rider missed a safe and legal overtake, then he's not making maximum progress. If he continues to show this as a trend, he can't expect to pass. It's not as if people aren't trained and briefed what to expect in the test. If you don't want to change the way you ride, save the money and carry on doing what you're doing...
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  4. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike O View Post
    of their decision to overtake or not. "I didn't feel like it" is not an acceptable reason during the test - although you are free to do whatever you want afterwards, whether you pass or fail.
    Would something like this be acceptable, Mike?

    "I didn't feel like overtaking, because doing so in that particular spot would have put me into a position which makes me uncomfortable, - I felt I would be too close to the crest of the hill ahead of me, and on the wrong side of the road, which also was quite rutted - so if somebody came flying over the crest of the hill, I do not feel I would have had the time to comfortably get back onto my side of the road"

    This would have been my explanation for the Fiesta issue.

    Surely this is deeply subjective, though?

  5. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by agfoxx View Post
    He did, and he accepted my explanation.
    Great.
    What I will say though is that having passed your advanced test I would recommend that you continue to go on group rides with the IAM group if they do that.
    I learned a lot after I passed my test and I haven't stopped learning since.

    I passed my test with Norfolk Advanced Motorcyclists and I'm starting to wonder if MikeO might have been my examiner back in 2003.

  6. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by agfoxx View Post
    Would something like this be acceptable, Mike?

    "I didn't feel like overtaking, because doing so in that particular spot would have put me into a position which makes me uncomfortable, - I felt I would be too close to the crest of the hill ahead of me, and on the wrong side of the road, which also was quite rutted - so if somebody came flying over the crest of the hill, I do not feel I would have had the time to comfortably get back onto my side of the road"

    This would have been my explanation for the Fiesta issue.

    Surely this is deeply subjective, though?
    I can't play 'what if?' on a set of conditions I wasn't there to witness, I'm afraid.

    Time and again I have come across candidates who ride in a timid or pedestrian manner. If there is an adequate margin of safety, and the candidate failed to act, then it's a mark down - if they continue to demonstrate the same attitude as a trend, then they fail. Don't forget, you might feel that there wasn't an adequate margin when there clearly was - this is an indication that you are not yet ready for test.

    I've not been examining for a couple of years, due to various reasons, but when active, I am regularly QA'd by the Dep Chief Examiner, to ensure that my standards are the same as examiners across the country.
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  7. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShakeyBMW View Post
    Great.
    What I will say though is that having passed your advanced test I would recommend that you continue to go on group rides with the IAM group if they do that.
    I learned a lot after I passed my test and I haven't stopped learning since.

    I passed my test with Norfolk Advanced Motorcyclists and I'm starting to wonder if MikeO might have been my examiner back in 2003.
    Did it start and end at Tesco in Dereham?
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  8. #24
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    My 2p worth

    Any overtake is subjective in as much as the view of the rider no matter how good his positioning will be different to the man assessing him who will be further back still from the target overtake.

    I always look at/for my "escape route" and again one mans escape route will be different to another not to mention the overtaking performance of different bikes.

    I like to be in plentyof space not surrounded by steel that could crush and kill me and i ride accordingly

    At the end of it all overtake when YOU feel it is safe to do so not whn dictated to by a "test" or other rider
    Just a Prospect at the moment

  9. #25
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    Advanced rider training is about increasing your skill level.
    You have to know how to make progress and be able to do so confidently, so aspects of lessons and testing focuses upon that.....


    You dont actually have to make progress when you are not on test or training.
    Brian

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  10. #26
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    Far too many peeps want a manual that says THIS is what you must do in THIS situation, the art of ADVANCED riding, is riding to what you see and what you cant see etc etc. There is no black and white involved, its all subjective depending on the particular circumstances at the time. If your not making progress when the circumstances say you can, then you deserve to be marked down and I don't hesitate to tell any of my associates if that's what they are doing. Most of my previous ones have passed their assessments with F1RSTs so I must be doing something right. If an associate cant grasp the "making safe progress" part then why the hell are they bothering ??

  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delboy777 View Post
    If an associate cant grasp the "making safe progress" part then why the hell are they bothering ??
    Just being devil's advocate.

    What if somebody comes to IAM because they want extra training a) for the sake of training (always good), and b) in order to be safer, in the first place?

    That was certainly my motivation. Travelling safer and quicker was never an attraction for me. I'm prepared to arrive there five minutes later.

    Having said that, I did pass, even if it was, now that I think about it, really borderline. So I must have done something right.

  12. #28
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    Roadcraft is worth a read and the Bikesafe course is valuable but if you have at least an ounce of common sense the rest is not necessary unless you like passing exams and want to feel superior.

  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delboy777 View Post
    Far too many peeps want a manual that says THIS is what you must do in THIS situation, the art of ADVANCED riding, is riding to what you see and what you cant see etc etc. There is no black and white involved, its all subjective depending on the particular circumstances at the time. If your not making progress when the circumstances say you can, then you deserve to be marked down and I don't hesitate to tell any of my associates if that's what they are doing. Most of my previous ones have passed their assessments with F1RSTs so I must be doing something right. If an associate cant grasp the "making safe progress" part then why the hell are they bothering ??
    I would agree, but to be fair to OP, the fact that your associates are getting F1RSTs only shows you are teaching what the IAM wants/requires, not that it is 'right'.

    from my own observing, I rarely see progress as an issue. Associates make poor progress due to their bad habits. As they gain experience and confidence, they usually make sufficient progress to achieve the standard without issue.

  14. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by agfoxx View Post
    Just being devil's advocate.

    What if somebody comes to IAM because they want extra training a) for the sake of training (always good), and b) in order to be safer, in the first place?

    That was certainly my motivation. Travelling safer and quicker was never an attraction for me. I'm prepared to arrive there five minutes later.

    Having said that, I did pass, even if it was, now that I think about it, really borderline. So I must have done something right.
    I refer you to post 25.

  15. #31
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    OP, Isn't the point of the IAM test about proving that you can ride at a more aggressive pace safely?
    After your test you can go back to riding as you normally would / prefer.

    Constantly appraising your speed and position and that of other road users takes alot more concentration and mental ability than just trundling along cautiously (which I'm sure you appreciate), that's not advanced riding, thats just being cautious....which is fine, it's a good recipe for self preservation above all else. You can ride cautiously whilst still applying "advanced principles" but it just means your riding within the your existing comfort zone.

    The advanced route is about extending your comfort zone without compromising safety...but in reality that is big grey blury line open to interpretation due to an individuals perception of risk and their ability. It may be your just too risk adverse or perhaps your not a "natural rider" and thats not meant as any disrespect meerly that we can all drive a car around a race track but few will ever be an F1 world champion as we simply aren't wired that way.

    To discuss your anecdote about a car wandering into your path because the driver scratched his knee, an adhoc event which may cause a sudden deviation, yes that is possible but is it likely? Would the deviation be sufficient to take you out? Are there any tell tale signs leading up to it?

    E.g. a sudden blowout could occur when you are along side, however to generate a big swerve their speed would probably need to be at motorway speeds or excessive, at 40mph in slow moving traffic when your filtering by, unlikely to cause a 2 feet deviation at the precise time your passing....

    An impatient driver suddenly changing lanes, far more likely. As Micky and Giles have repeatdly highlighted "beware the gaps" which you can fully plan for.

  16. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by agfoxx View Post
    [snip]

    For me, most of the training was concentrated on "going for gaps" and "making more progress".

    [snip]
    If that is really was most of the training, then it does rather sound like there are issue with how you were advised by your observers.

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