Are you a Hendon shuffler?

That’s not IAM or RoSPA training.
It’s an independent guy and I recall reading that the trick with the bit of wood is intended to demonstrate how stable the bike is when the wheels are tyurning, even at low speed.

i2i Academy I believe ...
 
What people seem to be missing here is a simple point: to teach someone to safely ride, you give them a simple of black-and-white ways of doing things (as per CBT and DAS). The aim of advanced training is to encourage them to think and enter the grey areas and make you ride like a person, not an automaton obeying the 'one way to stop correctly/overtake/corner'.

When I examine a candidate, I ask them to take me through their thinking on a particular hazard and why they took the course of action they did. If they can show that it was safe, legal and progressive, then that's fine. The Blue Book has been amended and edited over the years - and will continue to be as new techniques are introduced, so it's not a Bible - just a guide.

I groan inwardly every time some grizzled old observer asks me what the exact answer to a set of circumstances is - because they inevitably want an answer that they will engrave in stone and then spread (where it will inevitably be misinterpreted). The real answer is to ask what they think; what they did; what went wrong to cause them to ask the question - and then have a chat about the several ways the situation can be dealt with.

It's just about developing this type of thinking in the student/candidate - that's really all it is in my view...
 
What happens on a bike with DCT?

I roll to a stop and put my left foot down . When I set off I pin it and leave my left leg dangling out to the side Rossi styleeeeee and leave it there for the next 250yards whilst the bike changes up itself through the next 3 or 4 gears. Why ? Just because I can :D
 
I roll to a stop and put my left foot down . When I set off I pin it and leave my left leg dangling out to the side Rossi styleeeeee and leave it there for the next 250yards whilst the bike changes up itself through the next 3 or 4 gears. Why ? Just because I can :D


Do you deliver pizzas too :p
 
I roll to a stop and put my left foot down . When I set off I pin it and leave my left leg dangling out to the side Rossi styleeeeee and leave it there for the next 250yards whilst the bike changes up itself through the next 3 or 4 gears. Why ? Just because I can :D

Wonder what the examiner would say :)
 
What people seem to be missing here is a simple point: to teach someone to safely ride, you give them a simple of black-and-white ways of doing things (as per CBT and DAS). The aim of advanced training is to encourage them to think and enter the grey areas and make you ride like a person, not an automaton obeying the 'one way to stop correctly/overtake/corner'.

When I examine a candidate, I ask them to take me through their thinking on a particular hazard and why they took the course of action they did. If they can show that it was safe, legal and progressive, then that's fine. The Blue Book has been amended and edited over the years - and will continue to be as new techniques are introduced, so it's not a Bible - just a guide.

I groan inwardly every time some grizzled old observer asks me what the exact answer to a set of circumstances is - because they inevitably want an answer that they will engrave in stone and then spread (where it will inevitably be misinterpreted). The real answer is to ask what they think; what they did; what went wrong to cause them to ask the question - and then have a chat about the several ways the situation can be dealt with.

It's just about developing this type of thinking in the student/candidate - that's really all it is in my view...

Absolutely Mike, and I try and encourage this thinking when training DAS students. I know what the examiner is looking for in terms of their general bike control and ability to stop, pull away, deal with junctions etc but I also tell them the examiner is judging their decision making when faced with situations when on the move. I often get asked by a student "what should I do if this happens" as an example - it is as if they are expecting a ride by numbers answer. I always tell them that there is no such thing as a black and white response and they have to treat every situation on the road on its own merits as each situation will be different. There is no rule book which says if a) happens then you do this. My answer usually consists of telling them that if what they do is safe, applies correct observations and does not affect another road user then they have made the right decision.
 
Absolutely Mike, and I try and encourage this thinking when training DAS students. I know what the examiner is looking for in terms of their general bike control and ability to stop, pull away, deal with junctions etc but I also tell them the examiner is judging their decision making when faced with situations when on the move. I often get asked by a student "what should I do if this happens" as an example - it is as if they are expecting a ride by numbers answer. I always tell them that there is no such thing as a black and white response and they have to treat every situation on the road on its own merits as each situation will be different. There is no rule book which says if a) happens then you do this. My answer usually consists of telling them that if what they do is safe, applies correct observations and does not affect another road user then they have made the right decision.

Most people want to respond in an algorithmic way, rather than problem solve with reasoning and logic.
 
Reading this thread has me asking lots of questions.... but mostly it affirms my view of IAM training and how anal it looks
FFS it’s simple just be in control as you come to a halt
How fecking complicated do you need it to be?
Wonder how many people see this sort of discussion as a training deterrent ?
 
Reading this thread has me asking lots of questions.... but mostly it affirms my view of IAM training and how anal it looks
FFS it’s simple just be in control as you come to a halt
How fecking complicated do you need it to be?
Wonder how many people see this sort of discussion as a training deterrent ?

Exactly!
Any self respecting trail rider approaching a gate will be slipping it into neutral and stepping off the bike just as it comes to a halt (or in gear if it's down hill) without a second thought.....yet the 'roadies' include coming to a halt in a discussion about 'advanced riding' .....Advanced training'I think pmsl is the right expression :D:D
 
Reading this thread has me asking lots of questions.... but mostly it affirms my view of IAM training and how anal it looks
FFS it’s simple just be in control as you come to a halt
How fecking complicated do you need it to be?
Wonder how many people see this sort of discussion as a training deterrent ?

Re-read the thread, the posts that have been put up by those that are involved in delivering the IAM courses have stated that the course is no longer delivered using rules set in stone, such as the much discussed Hendon Shuffle. Instead they encourage the rider to be a "Thinking Rider" and adapt the skills they have to the situation that arises. They still promote the use of the 'System' but in a way, as andyscott suggests, to solve the problems, or situations, with reasoning and logic.

Therefore, if reading this thread 'reaffirms' your view of IAM training being anal, I suspect you are reading posts of other peoples opinion of how the IAM conduct their courses, posts which are probably based on the old ways and methods used, not those of current observers who have been working hard to change how the courses are delivered over the past few years. There may still be the odd group, or individual observers, out there that are 'stuck' in their old ways, but they will be few and far between and, I suspect, will not be around much longer.

I've been involved with the IAM for over 13 years, 10 of which as an observer (the last 8 as a senior then national observer) and the changes in how the courses are delivered in that time have been immense. Some of the old stalwarts weren't happy about some of these changes, if they didn't adapt and adopt these changes then I'm afraid they went the way of the dinosaur! There were, I believe, quite a few who spat the dummy out and left.

Even the relatively newly introduced Masters course as undergone some changes in how it's delivered, and tested. These changes are relatively minor, but as a Masters Mentor who took the Masters test in the early days, I have put on hold my availability in this role until I've had chance to shadow a Masters examiner to ensure that I am up to date and able to pass on the right advice to prospective Masters candidates.
 
I use the IAM shrinking distance rule it’s simple and works every time.
I judge traffic flows by a “will I be at risk when that car arrives” rule. If yes don’t go. If no then use the space.
I have no idea if it’s IAM.
When stopping I always (99%) use right leg. That puts the road camber in my favour. Having got caught out by dropped drain covers and low gutters (not to mention extreme cambers), I don’t plan to change that.
Every driver is out to get me especially the hesitant ones.
 
Re-read the thread, the posts that have been put up by those that are involved in delivering the IAM courses have stated that the course is no longer delivered using rules set in stone, such as the much discussed Hendon Shuffle. Instead they encourage the rider to be a "Thinking Rider" and adapt the skills they have to the situation that arises. They still promote the use of the 'System' but in a way, as andyscott suggests, to solve the problems, or situations, with reasoning and logic.

Therefore, if reading this thread 'reaffirms' your view of IAM training being anal, I suspect you are reading posts of other peoples opinion of how the IAM conduct their courses, posts which are probably based on the old ways and methods used, not those of current observers who have been working hard to change how the courses are delivered over the past few years. There may still be the odd group, or individual observers, out there that are 'stuck' in their old ways, but they will be few and far between and, I suspect, will not be around much longer.

I've been involved with the IAM for over 13 years, 10 of which as an observer (the last 8 as a senior then national observer) and the changes in how the courses are delivered in that time have been immense. Some of the old stalwarts weren't happy about some of these changes, if they didn't adapt and adopt these changes then I'm afraid they went the way of the dinosaur! There were, I believe, quite a few who spat the dummy out and left.

Even the relatively newly introduced Masters course as undergone some changes in how it's delivered, and tested. These changes are relatively minor, but as a Masters Mentor who took the Masters test in the early days, I have put on hold my availability in this role until I've had chance to shadow a Masters examiner to ensure that I am up to date and able to pass on the right advice to prospective Masters candidates.

nope, a teeny bit patronising to assume I misunderstood, so wont be re-reading the thread,thank you very much!
So lets start over and instead of assuming one thing, lets assume instead I am capable of analysis, and don't need someone to tell me my opinion on a subject!
I am sure there is a demand for IAM type training, but the thing that stands out in this thread is the mindset of the people posting on it which underpins my comments. Like in the real world, there is a fairly broad range of views, some of which are informed by the posters own experience, others, well, it reminds me of an old west yorkshire bike club I was briefly in, where the hot topic often seemed to be concerned with the 2nd gear pinion of an ariel square four, and the only right way to insert it into the box when carrying out a 10 year rebuild program

Luckily for me, I have benefited from excellent training from various people, some job, all of whom worked on a real time basis where dynamics of riding where the key: I do think the IAM does itself a major disservice by prattling on about minutiae like the topic here, important to realise forum posts like these are possibly the primary window most will have into the IAM
 
nope, a teeny bit patronising to assume I misunderstood, so wont be re-reading the thread,thank you very much!
So lets start over and instead of assuming one thing, lets assume instead I am capable of analysis, and don't need someone to tell me my opinion on a subject!
I am sure there is a demand for IAM type training, but the thing that stands out in this thread is the mindset of the people posting on it which underpins my comments. Like in the real world, there is a fairly broad range of views, some of which are informed by the posters own experience, others, well, it reminds me of an old west yorkshire bike club I was briefly in, where the hot topic often seemed to be concerned with the 2nd gear pinion of an ariel square four, and the only right way to insert it into the box when carrying out a 10 year rebuild program

Luckily for me, I have benefited from excellent training from various people, some job, all of whom worked on a real time basis where dynamics of riding where the key: I do think the IAM does itself a major disservice by prattling on about minutiae like the topic here, important to realise forum posts like these are possibly the primary window most will have into the IAM

Perhaps, rather than being patronising, he was puzzled as to how you had come to the conclusion you had, since the opposite has been espoused by the posters in the thread?
 
nope, a teeny bit patronising to assume I misunderstood, so wont be re-reading the thread,thank you very much!
So lets start over and instead of assuming one thing, lets assume instead I am capable of analysis, and don't need someone to tell me my opinion on a subject!
I am sure there is a demand for IAM type training, but the thing that stands out in this thread is the mindset of the people posting on it which underpins my comments. Like in the real world, there is a fairly broad range of views, some of which are informed by the posters own experience, others, well, it reminds me of an old west yorkshire bike club I was briefly in, where the hot topic often seemed to be concerned with the 2nd gear pinion of an ariel square four, and the only right way to insert it into the box when carrying out a 10 year rebuild program

Luckily for me, I have benefited from excellent training from various people, some job, all of whom worked on a real time basis where dynamics of riding where the key: I do think the IAM does itself a major disservice by prattling on about minutiae like the topic here, important to realise forum posts like these are possibly the primary window most will have into the IAM

I'm sorry you feel like that. I knew when I was typing the reply that I would probably be completely misunderstood, and probably shouldn't bother. Mike O is correct, I was not being patronising, it is not in my nature, I was somewhat puzzled how you reached the view you had.
 
I'm sorry you feel like that. I knew when I was typing the reply that I would probably be completely misunderstood, and probably shouldn't bother. Mike O is correct, I was not being patronising, it is not in my nature, I was somewhat puzzled how you reached the view you had.

ah well, perhaps we both missed our respective points then, although I am puzzled how you could misinterpret my post
 
(obviously theres DSA pass your test stuff and then there's the real world ... !)

Like the use of indicators apparently.

Is your view that you shouldn’t do it as he suggested, because it’s DSA or because a different way is better?

I’m an amateur rider and I’ve done it the ‘DSA way’ for the last 28 years.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
My 2p.
I'm not tall, I can't touch the ground with both feet at the same time, swapping sides is not a great plan at all.
I can still put the stand down if I need to get off e.g. when the lights are broken, someone needs help or I am being attacked by acid wiedling scrotes in a city.
I can play the game of 'this is not the neutral you are looking for'.
Stopped at a junction and getting bumped from behind, using the front brake seems better as humans grip naturally tightens when surprised (I appreciate there are limits).
So those are my thoughts about why I put my right foot down and don't shuffle.
 


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