Hilltop

stolzy said:
I've said it before, but this discussion gets more like one about alternative medicine every time its resurrected.
We're now discussing softer and softer end points, not BHP, but elimination of 'flat spots', 'low/mid range torque', 'smoother'.

Please keep it coming:D
Click to expand...
I had a cosworth with close to 400 bhp, undriveable in the wet, ate tyres and had a top end rebuild every 6 months.

It isn't how much power you have, but how it is produced.

Is it a "good" engine producing close to claimed power or a bad Un.

I had friend with 2•0iS Sierra, smooth, ran lovely, but was dog slow. Until we found that it was actually a Transit low compression engine in it, from new.

Too much power is never enough, until you have to try and use it !

Most bsb superbikes can make far more power than they do, it's about flexibility and grunt rather than absolute bhp.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
 
The test on two dyno is valid:

Dyno A gives a baseline

Dyno B (Hilltop Gives a Baseline)

Dyno B Gives the after reading showing the gains

Dyno A Is used again, does this show a similar % gain compared to its own baseline...

...not just talking top end, but across the graph, some off the Hilltop graphs show 25% plus mid range gains, these do look a bit suspect to me, the kind of difference between a 600cc bike and a 1000cc bike from a remap?

But if you ask me what I actually want this is not it anyway, I want to improve the low down fuelling and get back some of the mid range stolen by stupid EU regs, the ones that make our bikes shit where we want / need the power so we all have to rev them senseless and in the end cause more pollution by just riding around the poor running area.

The general consensus is the vats majority of Hilltop customers are very happy with how the bike runs afterwards - which surely is a result, but then the non Hilltop customers are unhappy with the graphs.

It is a pity they even have a dyno, it is only the graphs / numbers that cause the aggro, I hope they are not fiddling anything as it seems to get them more negative "press" than positive,

As stated looking at my ZZR graphs from many years ago nothing looked suspicious, but then again they only got the 3-5% gains most bods expect from a remap with that bike - and as per other folks comments it did feel noticeably nicer afterwards so in my view money well spent.
 
Rasher said:
The test on two dyno is valid:

Dyno A gives a baseline

Dyno B (Hilltop Gives a Baseline)

Dyno B Gives the after reading showing the gains

Dyno A Is used again, does this show a similar % gain compared to its own baseline...

...not just talking top end, but across the graph, some off the Hilltop graphs show 25% plus mid range gains, these do look a bit suspect to me, the kind of difference between a 600cc bike and a 1000cc bike from a remap?

But if you ask me what I actually want this is not it anyway, I want to improve the low down fuelling and get back some of the mid range stolen by stupid EU regs, the ones that make our bikes shit where we want / need the power so we all have to rev them senseless and in the end cause more pollution by just riding around the poor running area.

The general consensus is the vats majority of Hilltop customers are very happy with how the bike runs afterwards - which surely is a result, but then the non Hilltop customers are unhappy with the graphs.

It is a pity they even have a dyno, it is only the graphs / numbers that cause the aggro, I hope they are not fiddling anything as it seems to get them more negative "press" than positive,

As stated looking at my ZZR graphs from many years ago nothing looked suspicious, but then again they only got the 3-5% gains most bods expect from a remap with that bike - and as per other folks comments it did feel noticeably nicer afterwards so in my view money well spent.
Click to expand...

Agree, totally with you.

I did not have my bike dynoed - not interested in numbers, only real road driving results!
 
More Hilltop Magic

tanneman said:
Another Hilltop thread ..... FFS :blast
Click to expand...
I am new to the forum, but not biking or BMW's. Interesting reading your thoughts on Hilltop ECU remapping.
in fact, Hilltop does not remap your ECU. They do not alter or interfere with the original BMW ECU coding at all. Geoff has written his own engine management software code that resides on your ECU and takes over controlling the engine only. Other ECU functions, like ABS DCT & D-ESA work exactly as programmed in your ECU. It does not matter what BMW servicing do to your ECU with updates etc.; Geoff's software will still work. For me and my 2018 1200GS the difference was remarkable. Only just run in, but the increase in max BHP and Torque is significant at around 15%. Also, idling on my bike is now steady at 1100rpm. Previously, it hunted around anywhere from 900 - 1300rpm. But mostly, it is the way the bike now rides. I rode a long way there and then home, so had a good comparison. It now pulls strongly and smooth all the way through the gears. My low end torque is much improved and you can feel the bike has more power. For me, its the best £360 I'll ever spend on the bike. Interestingly, Geoff spoke of another 1200GS who came to him with all the bells and whistles before mine. I mean high flow air filters and full Remus racing pipes and muffler. That bike had the same resulting power and torque curves as my totally standard bike. Interesting ...

People call him magical and a genius .... may be. However, one thing is evident he is a talented and inspired engineer. This was my second bike to be done. No hesitations whatsoever. Both were significantly improved.:)
 
Beardieman said:
I am new to the forum, but not biking or BMW's. Interesting reading your thoughts on Hilltop ECU remapping.
in fact, Hilltop does not remap your ECU. They do not alter or interfere with the original BMW ECU coding at all. Geoff has written his own engine management software code that resides on your ECU and takes over controlling the engine only. Other ECU functions, like ABS DCT & D-ESA work exactly as programmed in your ECU. It does not matter what BMW servicing do to your ECU with updates etc.; Geoff's software will still work. For me and my 2018 1200GS the difference was remarkable. Only just run in, but the increase in max BHP and Torque is significant at around 15%. Also, idling on my bike is now steady at 1100rpm. Previously, it hunted around anywhere from 900 - 1300rpm. But mostly, it is the way the bike now rides. I rode a long way there and then home, so had a good comparison. It now pulls strongly and smooth all the way through the gears. My low end torque is much improved and you can feel the bike has more power. For me, its the best £360 I'll ever spend on the bike. Interestingly, Geoff spoke of another 1200GS who came to him with all the bells and whistles before mine. I mean high flow air filters and full Remus racing pipes and muffler. That bike had the same resulting power and torque curves as my totally standard bike. Interesting ...

People call him magical and a genius .... may be. However, one thing is evident he is a talented and inspired engineer. This was my second bike to be done. No hesitations whatsoever. Both were significantly improved.:)
Click to expand...

Glad you like it - but if your tickover was varying between 900 and 1300 rpm something was wrong with it! - my new 2018 Rallye TE ticks over at a steady 1100 rpm as one would expect - you should have taken it back to the BMW dealer first to fix the problem, you would then have had a sensible base reference point to make comparisons from.
 
I’m off to worship

I’ve succumbed and I’m going today :blast

Well at least it’s a nice day for a ride, and I can call in at Triumph on my way back :thumb2

Hope he has some new pics of his girlfriend :bounce1
 
Mr Bean said:
You got a new bike? You should have said rather than keeping it quiet....
Click to expand...

As I said, if your new 2018 GS tickover is changing between 900 and 1300 rpm your bike has a problem and that needs to be fixed before one can make any meaning comparison with a Hilltop software change.
 
Beardieman said:
I am new to the forum, but not biking or BMW's. Interesting reading your thoughts on Hilltop ECU remapping.
in fact, Hilltop does not remap your ECU. They do not alter or interfere with the original BMW ECU coding at all. Geoff has written his own engine management software code that resides on your ECU and takes over controlling the engine only. Other ECU functions, like ABS DCT & D-ESA work exactly as programmed in your ECU. It does not matter what BMW servicing do to your ECU with updates etc.; Geoff's software will still work. For me and my 2018 1200GS the difference was remarkable. Only just run in, but the increase in max BHP and Torque is significant at around 15%. Also, idling on my bike is now steady at 1100rpm. Previously, it hunted around anywhere from 900 - 1300rpm. But mostly, it is the way the bike now rides. I rode a long way there and then home, so had a good comparison. It now pulls strongly and smooth all the way through the gears. My low end torque is much improved and you can feel the bike has more power. For me, its the best £360 I'll ever spend on the bike. Interestingly, Geoff spoke of another 1200GS who came to him with all the bells and whistles before mine. I mean high flow air filters and full Remus racing pipes and muffler. That bike had the same resulting power and torque curves as my totally standard bike. Interesting ...

People call him magical and a genius .... may be. However, one thing is evident he is a talented and inspired engineer. This was my second bike to be done. No hesitations whatsoever. Both were significantly improved.:)
Click to expand...

Hi Beardieman

Welcome to the forum!

I haven’t had my bike Hilltop’d or any other work carried out on it, but I’m with you on this and know that specialists are able to polish, or smooth out engine manegement and fuelling. We both know that race teams adjust fuelling for virtually every race track, depending on altitude and weather conditions, although stock ECUs are limiting this to some degree now.

It doesn’t matter what you say on here, some people (usually the same ones) will always have a smart answer and add a little spin to their statement in order to try and make you look wrong and themselves right. There is absolutely nothing wrong with my bike and, as someone on here said about another forum member’s bike, it’s as BMW intended it to be. Yes we all know that motor vehicles are set up by manufacturers to run as best as they can in all conditions, as well as comply with the latest emission controls/regulations, i.e., a compromise. Anyway, I will tell you that my bike, as good as it is, does what yours used to do before yours was Hilltop’d. I notice that when riding slowly through a village at say 20mph-ish and whilst trying to vary the speed of the bike ever so slightly with the gentlest of throttle inputs, it can be a tad snatchy/jerky. I put this down to nothing other than fuelling. I can live with it, but would prefer to have it ironed out - reminds me of my old Honda SP1 in traffic, so will probably get round to having it ironed out at some stage... In the meantime, I’m living my life and enjoying a nice cup of tea. :thumb
 
When all is said and done, if you have a late model GS you can’t have it remapped. Your choices are a piggy-back device (fuelling and in some cases ignition) or Hilltop (nobody knows, could be either fuelling or timing advance or both, and the precision of either adjustment is unknown). A Powercommander / Rapid Bike type device can be custom tuned on a dyno for all throttle positions and engine loads. Hilltop don’t do this. From the limited evidence available, Hilltop add across-the-board x% extra fuel and/or x degrees timing advance. Incorporating working code into any and all makes of ecu is pretty damned clever, but its success will vary from bike model to bike model because of the low level of precision. That’s why if you’re unhappy with what Hilltop do to your bike, you get your money back, because there is little that can be done to adjust the tuning at particular revs or loads/throttle positions; it’s just not that precise. That’s not to say it doesn’t work well on some bikes - feedback here indicates that many GS owners are overjoyed with the results.

Like many, I don’t like add-on devices, so if you’ve a (currently) un-mappable bike such as a GS, Africa Twin or KTM 1190/1290, for example, Hilltop is your only option if you’re intent on trying to improve the way it runs as standard. With Euro 4 this is even more the case because ecu’s are becoming more resistant to remapping by virtue of their sophistication rather than security/encryption. For example, ecu’s used to just accept a constant signal from O2 sensor defeat devices, but many now keep varying afr wildly to try to trigger the sensor into life and this results in bizarre uneven running.

If only Hilltop were a little more open about what changes are made, there would be a lot less controversy. The only logical conclusion is that they feel it necessary (or beneficial!) to keep their service obscure, probably because its so basic and simple (but none the less, very clever!).
 
papasquelch said:
When all is said and done, if you have a late model GS you can’t have it remapped. Your choices are a piggy-back device (fuelling and in some cases ignition) or Hilltop (nobody knows, could be either fuelling or timing advance or both, and the precision of either adjustment is unknown). A Powercommander / Rapid Bike type device can be custom tuned on a dyno for all throttle positions and engine loads. Hilltop don’t do this. From the limited evidence available, Hilltop add across-the-board x% extra fuel and/or x degrees timing advance. Incorporating working code into any and all makes of ecu is pretty damned clever, but its success will vary from bike model to bike model because of the low level of precision. That’s why if you’re unhappy with what Hilltop do to your bike, you get your money back, because there is little that can be done to adjust the tuning at particular revs or loads/throttle positions; it’s just not that precise. That’s not to say it doesn’t work well on some bikes - feedback here indicates that many GS owners are overjoyed with the results.

Like many, I don’t like add-on devices, so if you’ve a (currently) un-mappable bike such as a GS, Africa Twin or KTM 1190/1290, for example, Hilltop is your only option if you’re intent on trying to improve the way it runs as standard. With Euro 4 this is even more the case because ecu’s are becoming more resistant to remapping by virtue of their sophistication rather than security/encryption. For example, ecu’s used to just accept a constant signal from O2 sensor defeat devices, but many now keep varying afr wildly to try to trigger the sensor into life and this results in bizarre uneven running.

If only Hilltop were a little more open about what changes are made, there would be a lot less controversy. The only logical conclusion is that they feel it necessary (or beneficial!) to keep their service obscure, probably because its so basic and simple (but none the less, very clever!).
Click to expand...
Or perhaps, as a capitalist society, they want to protect the investment in time/resources they have spent developing their "magic" and do not wish others to benefit from their efforts and therefore undercut them and possibly devalue their work too

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
 
By design, the BMW (and virtually all other) ECUs “lock onto” the O2 sensor (also called a lambda sensor). The ECU is almost constantly looking at the O2 to see if its approximate results are exactly what the O2 sensor wants it to be.

Unfortunately, all narrowband lambda sensors are produced at a reference value of lambda=1. This is an exact point with a very small amount of oxygen left in the exhaust, which means low unburned hydrocarbons, low oxides of nitrogen and is the best operating point for the catalytic converter. It is not the best operating point for power (solved by getting a more powerful engine) or throttle response (solved as best they can by BMW design engineering).

If you could purchase an O2 sensor with a value of 0.96–which means 4% more fuel—your ECU would lock into that and the bike would deliver a little more power and better throttle response. But no one makes a narrowband sensor other than at lambda=1.

You can buy a Wideband sensor with a narrowband emulating output from Innovate Motorsports (LC-2) that allows the lambda value to be programmed by the rider. Or you can buy an adjustable AF-XIED that makes the lambda value of a stock sensor look richer. In either case the ECU locks onto this and richens the mixture. It is so important to the ECU that a stock O2 sensor is present that BMW added a test to knock out the LC-2 and AF-XIED. The manufacturer of the AF-XIED has a work-around coming out soon.

Although remapping is cloaked in secrecy, lambda-shifting is fully in the public domain (build it yourself if you like)—and you can remove it and take it to your next bike.
 
papasquelch said:
When all is said and done, if you have a late model GS you can’t have it remapped. Your choices are a piggy-back device (fuelling and in some cases ignition) or Hilltop (nobody knows, could be either fuelling or timing advance or both, and the precision of either adjustment is unknown). A Powercommander / Rapid Bike type device can be custom tuned on a dyno for all throttle positions and engine loads. Hilltop don’t do this. From the limited evidence available, Hilltop add across-the-board x% extra fuel and/or x degrees timing advance. Incorporating working code into any and all makes of ecu is pretty damned clever, but its success will vary from bike model to bike model because of the low level of precision. That’s why if you’re unhappy with what Hilltop do to your bike, you get your money back, because there is little that can be done to adjust the tuning at particular revs or loads/throttle positions; it’s just not that precise. That’s not to say it doesn’t work well on some bikes - feedback here indicates that many GS owners are overjoyed with the results.

Like many, I don’t like add-on devices, so if you’ve a (currently) un-mappable bike such as a GS, Africa Twin or KTM 1190/1290, for example, Hilltop is your only option if you’re intent on trying to improve the way it runs as standard. With Euro 4 this is even more the case because ecu’s are becoming more resistant to remapping by virtue of their sophistication rather than security/encryption. For example, ecu’s used to just accept a constant signal from O2 sensor defeat devices, but many now keep varying afr wildly to try to trigger the sensor into life and this results in bizarre uneven running.

If only Hilltop were a little more open about what changes are made, there would be a lot less controversy. The only logical conclusion is that they feel it necessary (or beneficial!) to keep their service obscure, probably because its so basic and simple (but none the less, very clever!).
Click to expand...

From saying that nobody knows what Hilltop does - you then go on to say that all they do, is to add fuel across the range and/or adjust the spark timing.

Seems like you started off determined to look like you had a balanced viewpoint - but then couldn’t help yourself?
 
Ash700 said:
Hi Beardieman

I notice that when riding slowly through a village at say 20mph-ish and whilst trying to vary the speed of the bike ever so slightly with the gentlest of throttle inputs, it can be a tad snatchy/jerky. I put this down to nothing other than fuelling.
Click to expand...

Exactly this. I was beginning to wonder whether mine had deteriorated over 6K miles, but this makes me think I've just ridden the bike enough to know the bike. I've been thinking of the hilltop treatment simply to make it smoother around town, though my concern is that they aren't doing much more than a blackbox would, and both have the potential for longer term harm?
 
yofi said:
Exactly this. I was beginning to wonder whether mine had deteriorated over 6K miles, but this makes me think I've just ridden the bike enough to know the bike. I've been thinking of the hilltop treatment simply to make it smoother around town, though my concern is that they aren't doing much more than a blackbox would, and both have the potential for longer term harm?
Click to expand...
Is that a blackbox full of magic, or an empty blackbox ?

Having clocked up around 38k on this gsa, since hilltop'd; I haven't noticed any detrimental effects, but each to their own.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
 
I had my 2015 GS done yesterday - wasn’t bothered about extra power so no before and after dyno figures. I just wanted a more flexible engine and I wanted rid of that feeling that the engine could be easily stalled when pulling away in 1st gear. Well I don’t know and don’t really care what Hilltop did to my bike but it’s now much more fun to ride. Torque feels like it’s increased and comes in at lower revs and it pulls away in 1st gear with hardly any throttle. Money well spent as far as I’m concerned.
 
Spritchy said:
Well I don’t know and don’t really care what Hilltop did to my bike but it’s now much more fun to ride. Torque feels like it’s increased and comes in at lower revs and it pulls away in 1st gear with hardly any throttle. Money well spent as far as I’m concerned.
Click to expand...

For many like yourself that is enough ;-)

Others really want to know what someone has done to their bike and I do get that, to me it depends, much as I would prefer to know a bike that runs better is a bike that runs better and as long as it won't come to harm I am happy, Hilltop have done enough now that it seems as if they hold up well.

Interesting what Roger mentioned about Narrow Band sensors, a real shame someone does not make one with a different value, if I could just swop out my sensors and get much better closed loop fuelling on the cheap I would do so on all my bikes, might look into this LC2 Lamda sensor and see if I can find one for our bikes.
 
Nippy Normans supply Touratech, Wunderlich, Desert Fox and many other makes of accessories.
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