AF-XIED for R1200 LC

I didn’t read the links but as Roger has mentioned before a dyno run is done at wot only so it’s not a true reflection of your bikes fueling as we dont ride that way.

The technician at Brian Gray's place did a number of runs, not all were at WOT - at least that's what he told me. No idea if that makes a difference but he certainly didn't say 'your bike only fuels well at WOT". He did say the fuelling favoured more spirited riding, rather than commuting into London (I.e. Riding at slow speeds whilst filtering!), but I was fine with that as I walk to work ;)!
 
He may have done more extensive tests, if he did then you can be more confident in your fueling. Suited to spirited riding suggests the gains are more top end which might be from the free flow of your new headers etc. Not a bad thing as they do run out of puff if you really push on.

What they should do to map properly is use a wide band lambda in the headers and multiple runs at multiple throttle settings. Hence why most mapping takes hours. When my aprilia was mapped it had 8 runs on the dyno to get it right. A probe up its jacksy doesn’t tell you if one cylinder is rich and another is lean etc etc
 
Hi Roger, one question I have relating to optimal fuelling on an LC.

I posted on another thread relating to Hilltop that I fitted a full Akra system to my 2013 LC and then had took it to HT. A few months later I had the bike tested at an independent dyno facility where it was shown to be putting out about 118-120 BHP and in the words of the technician was so optimally fuelled that he couldn't do anything to improve on it.

Knutk's response to my post was that as the LC had adaptive capabilities which meant it would sort itself out and therefore would be perfectly fuelled without the need for any remap! If this is the case then why is there any need for the AF-XIEDs on an LC bike? :nenau


My response at the time was short and to the point. If it was confusing, my bad, I'll try to rectify and elaborate.


According to Acras own webpage, the mentioned HP is what to be expected from the 1200LC with a Acra system. They even show dyno charts to prove it.

The adaption means that the ECU will adjust the fueling to the EMISSION REQUIREMENTS, I.e on the lean side, but no more or less than your bike was prior to fitting the Acra system, thus you can fit the full Acra (or any other can) without the need to readjust. However, keep in mind that it will readjust to the emission certified setting, which is ok, but still on the lean side.


I think your tuner was absolutely correct in every way.

-- The HP corresponds to Acras own dyno runs published on their website.

-- The fueling AFR was as on any other non modified bike

-- There was nothing the tuner could do to your bike, since any change of the map will be compensated by the adaption.

So your tuner was honest about the fact that he could not do anything, since the only thing he could offer is a remap, and a remap will do nothing to your bike, due to the fact that adaption will neutralize the effect of the readjusted map. This is apparently an honest and professional tuner that will not sell you stuff just for the sake of selling and take advantage of your lacking knowledge. A true professional :thumb

Unless you want to disconnect the O2 sensor, there is only one way, and that is to influence the adaption.

There is a company in Hinkley that claim they will do it, but are quite unwilling to prove it, and there is the AF-XIED that offers the external boxes. Not quite as clean as the offer from Hinkley, but on the other hand, they are able and willing to prove that their stuff works…

Hope this clarify my obvious too short answer. My apologies, it will happen again :aidan
 
My response at the time was short and to the point. If it was confusing, my bad, I'll try to rectify and elaborate.


According to Acras own webpage, the mentioned HP is what to be expected from the 1200LC with a Acra system. They even show dyno charts to prove it.

The adaption means that the ECU will adjust the fueling to the EMISSION REQUIREMENTS, I.e on the lean side, but no more or less than your bike was prior to fitting the Acra system, thus you can fit the full Acra (or any other can) without the need to readjust. However, keep in mind that it will readjust to the emission certified setting, which is ok, but still on the lean side.


I think your tuner was absolutely correct in every way.

-- The HP corresponds to Acras own dyno runs published on their website.

-- The fueling AFR was as on any other non modified bike

-- There was nothing the tuner could do to your bike, since any change of the map will be compensated by the adaption.

So your tuner was honest about the fact that he could not do anything, since the only thing he could offer is a remap, and a remap will do nothing to your bike, due to the fact that adaption will neutralize the effect of the readjusted map. This is apparently an honest and professional tuner that will not sell you stuff just for the sake of selling and take advantage of your lacking knowledge. A true professional :thumb

Unless you want to disconnect the O2 sensor, there is only one way, and that is to influence the adaption.

There is a company in Hinkley that claim they will do it, but are quite unwilling to prove it, and there is the AF-XIED that offers the external boxes. Not quite as clean as the offer from Hinkley, but on the other hand, they are able and willing to prove that their stuff worksÂ…

Hope this clarify my obvious too short answer. My apologies, it will happen again :aidan

Thank you for the much more detailed response which I think I understand much better now! :beerjug:

As you've noted my bike was a bit lean pre-work which I put down to fitting the Akra, and it also had noticeable flat spots where it was hesitant on the throttle (e.g trying to hold 30mph in 3rd gear was hard work). I presume this would be the influence of the Emissions parameters you have eluded to and which BMW build into their software to be compliant.

Post "treatment" was noticeably better which I now understand from your post must have been achieved by (potentially ;)) influencing the bike's built in adaption in some way.

The Independent place I went to race sidecars at International level, but in terms of remap capability their main products are the Dynojet range, which I presume has a similar effect as the AF-XIEDs in that it works externally to the ECU. Nice to know they behaved in a reputable manner though! :thumb

Thank you for taking the time to explain things in more simple terms so a lay person like me can understand.
 
Thank you for the much more detailed response which I think I understand much better now! :beerjug:

As you've noted my bike was a bit lean pre-work which I put down to fitting the Akra, and it also had noticeable flat spots where it was hesitant on the throttle (e.g trying to hold 30mph in 3rd gear was hard work). I presume this would be the influence of the Emissions parameters you have eluded to and which BMW build into their software to be compliant.

Post "treatment" was noticeably better which I now understand from your post must have been achieved by (potentially ;)) influencing the bike's built in adaption in some way.

The Independent place I went to race sidecars at International level, but in terms of remap capability their main products are the Dynojet range, which I presume has a similar effect as the AF-XIEDs in that it works externally to the ECU. Nice to know they behaved in a reputable manner though! :thumb

Thank you for taking the time to explain things in more simple terms so a lay person like me can understand.

I must agree it is nice when people explain nicely and exactly how and why things work, in order for the less technical boffins as ourselves, even though we can understand when it is clearly explained, and not simply it works trust me I know, as what works for one model of a bike, may not work on another, or even some bikes a few years older, so is the technical revolution today, I myself am not looking for power as bike is fast enough, just looking for a tad smother and maybe cooler, and AF-XIED for the Watercooled 2017 bike seems to fit in perfectly for me, thanks to the help of several members of this forum, and if I do not find it suits me personally, easy to sell on, at least I have something in the hand....:beerjug:
 
@Toddmeister mentioned Dynojet (Power Commander) as an alternative.

This site shows an honest evaluation of the Powercommander installed on a 1200LC.

https://superbikesolutions.blogspot.com/2015/07/bmw-r-1200-gs-lc-liquid-cooled-tuning.html

They show dyno runs at different powersettings, not at WOT only.
When reading the dynocharts, keep in mind that the before readings are with O2 disconnected, thus leaner than an unmodified bike, and therefor the AFR reads leaner and HP are slightly lower. Still, the after reading is with AFR at 13.


They show maximum HP at 121, while 'before' is 113, with AFR 17. That makes sense, since other dyno runs published elsewhere shows typical 115 - 118 HP with an unmodified bike.

The interesting part is the improvements at midrange, where there is a higher gain in power. Again, this makes sense, since this where the unmodified engine runs at it's leanest. But again, the 'before' reading dynochart is lower than an unmodified bike since the O2 sensor is disconnected.

So why this very lean running with the O2 sensor disconnected? BMW regard the O2 failure as an emergency operation where you should be able to 'limp' home with an engine running without causing any permanent damage, but no more. The heart of the fueling is built around the O2 feed back.

Why such a lean run in 'limp mode', if the working O2 will rectify any fueling, even if set to a richer fueling in 'limp mode'.
Well, I'm sure the environment agency would applaud the positive effect on the running on an engine if disconnecting the O2 sensor would offer a richer AFR. They would applaud the 'disconnect O2 tuning' :hippy

The Powercommander will indeed provide an improved fueling. But is bulky, and it requires a Dyno run. And with O2 disconnected, any changes to the engine, such as replacing the can or a clogged airfilter will affect the fueling. They use several hours to achieve AFR 13 over the entire RPM range. You may install the wideband Lambda and an additional module, which then will optimize the fueling.

Or you can install the AF-XIED and keep the O2 sensor connected, avoiding the reduced performance that the ECU (it reduces several adjustments besides the enrichment) offers when no O2 signal is present, and you may adjust the desired AFR range by the help of a screwdriver. And way less boxes and cables than PC.
 
@Toddmeister mentioned Dynojet (Power Commander) as an alternative.

This site shows an honest evaluation of the Powercommander installed on a 1200LC.

https://superbikesolutions.blogspot.com/2015/07/bmw-r-1200-gs-lc-liquid-cooled-tuning.html

They show dyno runs at different powersettings, not at WOT only.
When reading the dynocharts, keep in mind that the before readings are with O2 disconnected, thus leaner than an unmodified bike, and therefor the AFR reads leaner and HP are slightly lower. Still, the after reading is with AFR at 13.


They show maximum HP at 121, while 'before' is 113, with AFR 17. That makes sense, since other dyno runs published elsewhere shows typical 115 - 118 HP with an unmodified bike.

The interesting part is the improvements at midrange, where there is a higher gain in power. Again, this makes sense, since this where the unmodified engine runs at it's leanest. But again, the 'before' reading dynochart is lower than an unmodified bike since the O2 sensor is disconnected.

So why this very lean running with the O2 sensor disconnected? BMW regard the O2 failure as an emergency operation where you should be able to 'limp' home with an engine running without causing any permanent damage, but no more. The heart of the fueling is built around the O2 feed back.

Why such a lean run in 'limp mode', if the working O2 will rectify any fueling, even if set to a richer fueling in 'limp mode'.
Well, I'm sure the environment agency would applaud the positive effect on the running on an engine if disconnecting the O2 sensor would offer a richer AFR. They would applaud the 'disconnect O2 tuning' :hippy

The Powercommander will indeed provide an improved fueling. But is bulky, and it requires a Dyno run. And with O2 disconnected, any changes to the engine, such as replacing the can or a clogged airfilter will affect the fueling. They use several hours to achieve AFR 13 over the entire RPM range. You may install the wideband Lambda and an additional module, which then will optimize the fueling.

Or you can install the AF-XIED and keep the O2 sensor connected, avoiding the reduced performance that the ECU (it reduces several adjustments besides the enrichment) offers when no O2 signal is present, and you may adjust the desired AFR range by the help of a screwdriver. And way less boxes and cables than PC.

so does the AF-XIED adaption of the fueling influence the entire rev range and different tps with one value?
i "assumed" the bike ran a closed loop system and the o2 sensors would only influence lower rpm and tps portions of the fuel trim tables
 
so does the AF-XIED adaption of the fueling influence the entire rev range and different tps with one value?
i "assumed" the bike ran a closed loop system and the o2 sensors would only influence lower rpm and tps portions of the fuel trim tables

AF-XIED does not have any RPM feedback. It only relates to the O2 reading, so your assumption is correct, it strives to obtain the selected AFR regardless of RPM.

It is true that the instant corrections will be performed in closed loop only. However, the closed loop range varies depending on use of throttle, thus a large range of rpm will at some point be operated in closed loop. And when in closed loop, the corrections to the adjustment of fueling will be stored in the adaptive table (in the car world also named as short term trim for the immediate corrections and long term trim for the stored collection of corrections).

So even in open loop conditions the adaptive map (long term trim) is added to the equation, and little by little the open loop condition will benefit from the O2 manipulation as well, How long it takes depend on your driving style. The adaptive table is in a continued ever ending update process, thus a slow change in conditions that will affect fueling (clogging of air filter, false air etc) will slowly be compensated for. The aim for ECU is to achieve the closed loop fueling even in open loop conditions. All in the name of emission control.


As rpm is increasing the ECU will disregard the O2 sensor since the sensor is too slow to make sensible correction, so in this top end region the O2 manipulation will not do much. But in this area the fueling is all ready richened up. But if the desire to get an extra couple of HP is very important, the power commander will be desired.
For every day riding the O2 manipulation is a cheap and simple way to improve the midrange. However, don't expect the racing guys to spend their time on O2 manipulation...
 
I’d like to add a couple comments to what Knutk has written. As he said, the short term trims do continuously adjust the Closed Loop area. And as he said, the long term trims which are calculated from the (short term) Closed Loop area trims are applied to the entire fueling map. This means if your AF-XIED or LC-2 (or Knutk Box if you’re lucky enough to be Knutk ;)) is set to add 6% to the Closed Loop area, then after a few tanks of fuel, you’ll see 6% added all the way to WOT and 7000 RPM. So with the AF-XIED/LC-2/Knutk, we’ve cleverly taken advantage of a system that was used to correct aging of the motorcycle and used it to do all that AND to add fuel.

How big is the Closed Loop area? You can see in the chart below from my early work that it it goes to about 60% throttle and 5600 RPM on the R1150s. On the R1200s the area covered is larger but I don’t have a chart. You might also ask about the long term trims, how many are there? I don’t know the answer exactly but from my work with the gs-911, the table is quite large and in the case of the LC bike’s, so big that the GS-911 folks don’t want to analyze and include the data. And there are two long term trim tables: one is Multiplicative and one is Additive. This allows the ECU to develop a scale and offset factor for the Open Loop fueling calculation.

Considering the above, I would say that a PowerCommander PCV would only make sense if you add a substantial amount of air flow (not talking about an exhaust swap). But remember even a PCV can’t change ignition advance. The bottom line is that something like an AF-XIED makes a nice fuel addition, in harmony with everything else the BMSX ECU can do.

R1150ClosedLoop1.jpg
 
Also note in my chart above, which is from a ride with a few WOT accelerations, where we riders spend most of our time: in the Closed Loop area. Now ask yourself, if that the case and if Dyno runs are the top row of the chart, how relevant are they? The vast majority of our riding is below 25% throttle!
 
Great response from both.
That does make sense and i completely agree, its a rarity that most GS' will spend much time at constant WOT.

Been looking at buying a plx wideband bluetooth kit for other aspects of tuning i do, i may try hook that up to my GS and get an indication of how it runs in varying conditions.
 
@Toddmeister mentioned Dynojet (Power Commander) as an alternative.

This site shows an honest evaluation of the Powercommander installed on a 1200LC.

https://superbikesolutions.blogspot.com/2015/07/bmw-r-1200-gs-lc-liquid-cooled-tuning.html

They show dyno runs at different powersettings, not at WOT only. ...

That’s a really good blog in the PCV without Autotune. Here are a few things that caught my attention.

— Closed Loop to 80% throttle.

The 1150 was about 60%, early R1200s about 70%. With 80% throttle coverage, about the only time you’re not at 14.7 on a stock bike is WOT.



— AFR of 17 at WOT, with O2s disconnected.

My first reaction was disbelief. But there are two benefits: Power is reduced with no risk of damage. AFRs around 17.1:1 are safe and cool, they just don’t produce much power, and the rider knows there’s an issue. Second, 10-15% leanER THAN 14.7 is safer for the engine than 5% richer than 14.7 where there’d be less detonation margin at WOT.

I don’t believe the stock map at wot is 17, just the limp mode.

— Reset adaptive values.

Before tuning with a PCV the adaptive values should be reset so that the baseline is solid. It would be bad to tune with adaptive values hanging around and then later have them accidentally cleared.
 
Has anybody installed the AF-XIED to their new 1250 yet..............:rob

Using a manipulator on the 1250 will pose a new challenge. There is a third O2 sensor that is mounted after the cat. It probably is there to verify the effect of the cat, and the feedback to ECU will be different than from the two O2's ahead of the cat. Installing manipulators on two of the O2's only will probably throw a fault code, in which case the ECU will not enter close loop and the manipulation will not work.

I have plans to put my 1250 on the bench and check it, but that will be when riding season is at it's end. Kind of a potential winter project.:beer:
 
Using a manipulator on the 1250 will pose a new challenge. There is a third O2 sensor that is mounted after the cat. It probably is there to verify the effect of the cat, and the feedback to ECU will be different than from the two O2's ahead of the cat. Installing manipulators on two of the O2's only will probably throw a fault code, in which case the ECU will not enter close loop and the manipulation will not work.

I have plans to put my 1250 on the bench and check it, but that will be when riding season is at it's end. Kind of a potential winter project.:beer:

Interesting so nothing really out there at the moment that would enhance the new 1250................:rob
 
I think that sometimes it doesn't matter what a manufacturer will do to improve their bikes and keep them to current (responsible) emissions standards. There will always be riders who want to modify them and for 99% of our riding, usually with no real benefit, at least in the case of the 1250 which by all accounts is bang-on straight from the factory.

It won't stop people with too much time and money on their hands from trying to "tune" a 1250 though :blast.

If I were now to go ahead with any tuning on my 1200 LC, I think that the AF-XIED, from everything shared in this thread, is clearly the simplest and most likely the best option. Whilst I can see the benefits, it still plays on my conscience that in doing so, I'll be removing emissions controls in fuelling to some extent but more than that, I remain sceptical that any form of tuning is needed, at least to my own bike which is great as standard. It could be improved but it's good enough not to need improving. It could have a little more low/mid drive but imho, it has more than plenty already. If someone could convince me that it would make the bike more long term reliable, then the emissions arguments start to fade by virtue of whole life carbon footprint considerations.

This is one of the biggest cons currently in the car world where we have a plethora of "clean" tiny engined, highly stressed turbo direct injection petrols....with a lifespan likely half that of a well maintained normally aspirated larger displacement if less efficient motor. What has been found with many of these designs is that especially when cold, they dilute the oil with gasoline (Honda kicked off the whole thing with many claims in the Sattes for failing CRV I think it was engines). Result? No recalls, just a note to dealers suggesting oil changes are changed from 12K to 6K intervals, or to 3K intervals for harsh driving environments like short trips.

Ford have had major issues with their direct injection petrol buzz boxes failing prematurely too (as well as transmission issues). It's all been driven by Euro emissions regulations. Result? Higher carbon footprint due to more scrapped engines in short order and increased oil consumption.

Bikes, by and large, do not seem to have suffered the same fate. The 1250 is a prime example of just what is achievable with good engineering know how.
 


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