I grabbbed loads of realtime data using GS911 when i had my issue - for the TPS it tells you diddly squat,
or should i say it returns a trace, but it gives no indication as to whats good/ bad/ failing etc .
Rough running issue - Still not bloody sorted.....
- Thread starter commandoallan
- Start date
I grabbbed loads of realtime data using GS911 when i had my issue - for the TPS it tells you diddly squat,
or should i say it returns a trace, but it gives no indication as to whats good/ bad/ failing etc .
commandoallan
Registered user
Hey Austin,
Many thanks for replying and providing the link to your thread. After reading your thread I have found that quite a few of your symptoms are present on my bike with the procedure you went through for your fix followed by myself over the last few months. I think I shall return my TPS to motorworks as I am concerned with the functionality of it.
I have ordered a Hella unit off of fleabay as advised by Santa, done a search on there previously but did not come up with the units so was putting the incorrect search parameters in. I will fit the unit when it arrives from Germany and see how I go.
From your thread it would seem that the throttle bodies have to be synced after fitting the new unit? Calibration of the throttle itself with the engine off? And also a visit to a dealer to match the new TPS with the ECU? Never done much of this before as I am relatively new to working on my bike apart from bolting stuff on and off and several minor services followed by a major one. I will have to re-read your post a few times to confirm the way to go.
Many thanks for your input.
commandoallan
Registered user
Hey mate,
Didn't look at the values before cleaning (doh) but the values provided where after cleaning of my unit and before touching the part from motorworks. Didn't know about the units on fleabay but have now ordered one.
Many thanks for the advice.
You do not have to visit the dealer to get the new tps linked to the ECU, when you resync & rebalance the throttle bodys it will learn it all again
Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk
Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk
commandoallan
Registered user
Hey Knut,
Thanks for the explanation, I will have a check on my GS today and look out for any values between the TPS values on the cylinders if this function is available.
See post 41
commandoallan
Registered user
Thanks Santa,
So if no direct way of monitoring the TPS functionality on both cylinders is there an indirect way using other values associated with each cylinder which may aid diagnosis?
Maybe a stupid question but I thought I would ask.
I have a 2008 registered (nov 2007 made) Hex head. At 4600 to 4800 rpm it’s as rough as a cement mixer with a bag of large bolts. It’s a feature – and I always thought it a mechanical / balance / frequency thing rather than electrical. Either side of those revs there’s no issue. Aside for the terrible fuelling below 3500 rpm that’s standard and emission based.
It makes no difference if you use 98 or 95 octane fuel. And it never got better or worse in 25k miles. Due to a bigger issue at 6300RPM under hard use in hot conditions I fitted a power commander to try and alleviate a huge flat spot there. By altering fuelling between cyl 1 and cyl 2 you can slightly mask the roughness at 460RPM and reduces the flat spot at 6300 rpm but not irradiate either.
At the time I didn’t realise the bike had knock sensors and that’s actually the specific issue with intermittent 6300 – 6600 rpm chasm in the power curve. Mine was always much faster than any other ones I’ve ridden (including LC’s below 7500k rpm). Some bikes are prepped for road testing and have been enhanced over stock bikes you can actually buy. No idea if mine was played with but compared to 2010 bikes mine always left them for dead. So maybe mine was pushing the ignition curve at 6300 too far, eitherway full throttle hot weather 98 octane or not, knock would turn the key off for 2 seconds and the powercommander only impacting fuelling could only run a bit rich earlier lowing output going into 6300k rpm region mask it during and smooth the curve coming out, to lessen the effect.
The biggest win on that flat spot was to drop the gearing (by running lower aspect ratio rear tyre) as I wanted to go to road tyres I went that way and 90% of the time it rides though without knock. After 20k miles running the lower aspect rear tyre, I realised the bike now stated it had done 1k more miles than it really has and as Dunlop were now making the LC tyre sizes, I’ve moved both ends to these size tyres and the gearing’s back to std but its brought back the 6300 rpm flat spot. I was going to run water meth injection to reduce knock as the power commander supports it but the cost of a pump is stupid.
Anyway after the dealer point blank lied there no such thing as a remap from BMW. I found some release notes stating over the course of two revisions by circa by 2009. They had 3 fixes for.
1) improved idle stability.
2) altered cold weather mapping.
3) improved knock sensitivity.
So stupidly thinking all three would be a useful addition and being unable to find anyone openly prepared to state they do after market ignition curve enhancements, in Jan 2018 I had the i-level updated for £30 at a main dealer. It only takes 20 minutes of their time. And aside from all other modules being updated (with fixes on TPMS errors, Trip computer fuel calculation mistakes, and removing a bug in the logic related to starting and the side stand), it flashes the engine ECU with new fuel and ignition maps.
In the cold weather and low traction conditions it superficially felt better. Far smoother below 4k and OK elsewhere. Of course being so cold I wasn’t likely to find out if it did anything at 6300 rpm for months. Initially I was happy, but as it warmed up and wind chill was less of an issue and I started opening it up I found all the top end hit I had had, vanished and an even worse a new major fault was there to seriously irritate me and ruin the bike every ride.
Once past 7000 rpm its totally flat missing a good 12 BHP from 7000 rpm and at 4300 to 4800 rpm I have a flat spot from hell with a good 15 bhp and some 20 ft-lb of torque that has gone walkabout !!! I had to completely remap the powercommander (which isn’t totally surprising) but the extend and how hard was. And then I realised nothing worked anymore, it was just rubbish everywhere. The faults come thick and fast every ride.
I got back a bit of top end but it’s not the bike it was, I can’t do anything for the yawing chasm of hell from 4000 to 5000 rpm and the 6300 bit is masked coz nothing happens anywhere any more. Now I’ve got it almost rideable (but with nothing at 4 to 5 k) I find once the temps tumble the “improved” cold weather map (which seems to come in below 14C) is 10% over the top and it runs like a dog when its chilly.
The cement mixer and bolts roughness at 4600 rpm is still exactly the same, but its now totally flat, gutless and awful to ride at most revs and its ruined a great bike.
And in case anyone knows there stuff, here's the engine map part numbers (for the Bosch BMS-K Plus ECU)
For 10 years I had 07717143
Now it’s ruined its on 07719873
It makes no difference if you use 98 or 95 octane fuel. And it never got better or worse in 25k miles. Due to a bigger issue at 6300RPM under hard use in hot conditions I fitted a power commander to try and alleviate a huge flat spot there. By altering fuelling between cyl 1 and cyl 2 you can slightly mask the roughness at 460RPM and reduces the flat spot at 6300 rpm but not irradiate either.
At the time I didn’t realise the bike had knock sensors and that’s actually the specific issue with intermittent 6300 – 6600 rpm chasm in the power curve. Mine was always much faster than any other ones I’ve ridden (including LC’s below 7500k rpm). Some bikes are prepped for road testing and have been enhanced over stock bikes you can actually buy. No idea if mine was played with but compared to 2010 bikes mine always left them for dead. So maybe mine was pushing the ignition curve at 6300 too far, eitherway full throttle hot weather 98 octane or not, knock would turn the key off for 2 seconds and the powercommander only impacting fuelling could only run a bit rich earlier lowing output going into 6300k rpm region mask it during and smooth the curve coming out, to lessen the effect.
The biggest win on that flat spot was to drop the gearing (by running lower aspect ratio rear tyre) as I wanted to go to road tyres I went that way and 90% of the time it rides though without knock. After 20k miles running the lower aspect rear tyre, I realised the bike now stated it had done 1k more miles than it really has and as Dunlop were now making the LC tyre sizes, I’ve moved both ends to these size tyres and the gearing’s back to std but its brought back the 6300 rpm flat spot. I was going to run water meth injection to reduce knock as the power commander supports it but the cost of a pump is stupid.
Anyway after the dealer point blank lied there no such thing as a remap from BMW. I found some release notes stating over the course of two revisions by circa by 2009. They had 3 fixes for.
1) improved idle stability.
2) altered cold weather mapping.
3) improved knock sensitivity.
So stupidly thinking all three would be a useful addition and being unable to find anyone openly prepared to state they do after market ignition curve enhancements, in Jan 2018 I had the i-level updated for £30 at a main dealer. It only takes 20 minutes of their time. And aside from all other modules being updated (with fixes on TPMS errors, Trip computer fuel calculation mistakes, and removing a bug in the logic related to starting and the side stand), it flashes the engine ECU with new fuel and ignition maps.
In the cold weather and low traction conditions it superficially felt better. Far smoother below 4k and OK elsewhere. Of course being so cold I wasn’t likely to find out if it did anything at 6300 rpm for months. Initially I was happy, but as it warmed up and wind chill was less of an issue and I started opening it up I found all the top end hit I had had, vanished and an even worse a new major fault was there to seriously irritate me and ruin the bike every ride.
Once past 7000 rpm its totally flat missing a good 12 BHP from 7000 rpm and at 4300 to 4800 rpm I have a flat spot from hell with a good 15 bhp and some 20 ft-lb of torque that has gone walkabout !!! I had to completely remap the powercommander (which isn’t totally surprising) but the extend and how hard was. And then I realised nothing worked anymore, it was just rubbish everywhere. The faults come thick and fast every ride.
I got back a bit of top end but it’s not the bike it was, I can’t do anything for the yawing chasm of hell from 4000 to 5000 rpm and the 6300 bit is masked coz nothing happens anywhere any more. Now I’ve got it almost rideable (but with nothing at 4 to 5 k) I find once the temps tumble the “improved” cold weather map (which seems to come in below 14C) is 10% over the top and it runs like a dog when its chilly.
The cement mixer and bolts roughness at 4600 rpm is still exactly the same, but its now totally flat, gutless and awful to ride at most revs and its ruined a great bike.
And in case anyone knows there stuff, here's the engine map part numbers (for the Bosch BMS-K Plus ECU)
For 10 years I had 07717143
Now it’s ruined its on 07719873
maybe shouldn't say but cannon don't know what they are doing or how to programme bikes,
bought a bike approved used, (not the GS)
asked they install an alarm... they never did it right,
asked they update the I-level didn't even manage that... printed some rubbish to say they had, but every module was on the same software
took it to vines Guildford who know their stuff and they updated every module correctly and it came back with the LED in the cluster operating when the alarm was on, and now it has self cancelling indicators
(they didn't do the GS that was yet another lot....) although vines volunteered to sort the GS, I haven't gone round yet its a bit of a hike but the only ones I'd trust to work on bikes properly. Mate with a BM used vines and rates them a long way above others too
bought a bike approved used, (not the GS)
asked they install an alarm... they never did it right,
asked they update the I-level didn't even manage that... printed some rubbish to say they had, but every module was on the same software
took it to vines Guildford who know their stuff and they updated every module correctly and it came back with the LED in the cluster operating when the alarm was on, and now it has self cancelling indicators
(they didn't do the GS that was yet another lot....) although vines volunteered to sort the GS, I haven't gone round yet its a bit of a hike but the only ones I'd trust to work on bikes properly. Mate with a BM used vines and rates them a long way above others too
The TPS is plug and play, as Santa has already said. 5minute job for that bit and your bike may well run just fine with the new one fitted, but on some model years any change in throttle settings seems to result in a wildly pulsing tickover. I think its something to do with the learned adaptations. You have to use a gs911 to delete the adaptations and do a Throttle balance balance with the engine running to get everything nice again.
If no access to a GS911 you can still do the balance but not the adaptations reset if you get the pulsing tickover.
If you do have a gs911 look very closely at the real time values for throttle angle parameter. Zoom in by increasing the sample rate to max and only select throttle angle. With the engine not running the values should smoothly increase as you turn the throttle. With the engine running the readout should remain steady at tickover and with the throttle cracked open to hold fast tickover the readout should increase but also hold steady. Any jumps, fluctuations, wobbles or whatever would indicate a failing TPS.
Good luck. I hope you get it sorted.
commandoallan
Registered user
My original cleaned TPS now back on. Carried out the throttle angle test with the GS911 as above and looked good both with no engine running and also running. Done the throttle balance and also a throttle body sync, all good also.
Took it out to work today and what a bag of shyte..Really rough running all the time, I'm wondering if there is a broken/ chaffed cable in the loom? I seem to have done everything else people have stated apart from any kind of new ECU mapping and a loom replacement..
Really pissing me off now...Might give Vines in Guildford a call.
It still could be the TPS - cleaning it isnt always the magic fix, if the track is too far gone, nothing short of a new one will rectify it.
Going back to basics
And we may cover old ground - sorry
Ignoring the TPS
What are the symptoms in detail
How fast/ slow are you going?
Full or part throttle
What gear how warm / cold is the bike
Does it do it under load or no load
When you start the bike does it need throttle? does it idle ? at what RPM
what does it idle at when warm.
How many miles has the bike done
When were the plugs / oil / airfilter changed
Throttle cable slack checked
Adaptations cleared
Stepper motors synced / adjusted
Untill youve put a known good TPS on the bike, you cant rule that out completley
have you tried running the bike with the primary & secondary coils disconnected? what was the result
I can post you my spare good one to try if you want. PM me if you are interested
commandoallan have you actually set up to look at the live data that the GS911 can access whether it be in tablet or laptop??
Seeing what stuff is doing is the basis of diagnostics
Did you try simply removing the lamda probe connections so that they are out of the system and test ride it then?
Have you taken out the Fuel pump controller and checked for water in there?
Seeing what stuff is doing is the basis of diagnostics
Did you try simply removing the lamda probe connections so that they are out of the system and test ride it then?
Have you taken out the Fuel pump controller and checked for water in there?
Not the same bike (800GS), but may help.
The fuel pressure regulator on mine was faulty so it was constatntly overfuelling. Running badly, very poor fuel consumption and black smoke.
No warning on the dash but when I checked the fuel pressure setting between the faulty one and the new one it was obvious. Without a GS911 I would not have access to the value.
It tooks me weeks to find the issue because no error was flagged. I tried a replacement Lamda before trying the FPR.
Good luck
The fuel pressure regulator on mine was faulty so it was constatntly overfuelling. Running badly, very poor fuel consumption and black smoke.
No warning on the dash but when I checked the fuel pressure setting between the faulty one and the new one it was obvious. Without a GS911 I would not have access to the value.
It tooks me weeks to find the issue because no error was flagged. I tried a replacement Lamda before trying the FPR.
Good luck
The fuel pressure regulator on a 1200 is mechanical with no pressure sensor in the circuit, so the GS911 has no way of monitoring it.
As stated the best way is to study the data. Ideally you need a way to log the air fuel ratio to see if it is fuel related, If not fuel related, then the GS911 data might give you a few clues.
As stated the best way is to study the data. Ideally you need a way to log the air fuel ratio to see if it is fuel related, If not fuel related, then the GS911 data might give you a few clues.
Petrol?
What petrol are you putting in it?
Avoid supermarket pumps.
People say that petrol could go stale if over 6 weeks sitting around.
Try Shell V Power; 99 octane.
Fill tank when almost empty.
My oilhead runs noticeably better on this than on standard unleaded.
Plus Redex seemed to help as well.
Another suggestion, when tank is nearly empty, try Aspen4T; synthetic petrol. Very good in 2 stroke chain saws etc (Aspen 2T in these though).
Doesn’t go stale for years.
Costs the earth, £20 for 5L approx, but may be worth a punt as a diagnostic test.
Good luck.
What petrol are you putting in it?
Avoid supermarket pumps.
People say that petrol could go stale if over 6 weeks sitting around.
Try Shell V Power; 99 octane.
Fill tank when almost empty.
My oilhead runs noticeably better on this than on standard unleaded.
Plus Redex seemed to help as well.
Another suggestion, when tank is nearly empty, try Aspen4T; synthetic petrol. Very good in 2 stroke chain saws etc (Aspen 2T in these though).
Doesn’t go stale for years.
Costs the earth, £20 for 5L approx, but may be worth a punt as a diagnostic test.
Good luck.
commandoallan
Registered user
Thanks Seahorse but I have one ordered on its way from Germany. I will fit this when it arrives.
Many thanks though mate.
commandoallan
Registered user
Hey Doc,
The fuel pump controller has been replaced with a new item, two new lambdas on also.
commandoallan
Registered user
Hey Santa,
t still could be the TPS - cleaning it isnt always the magic fix, if the track is too far gone, nothing short of a new one will rectify it. New item on it's way.
Going back to basics
And we may cover old ground - sorry
Ignoring the TPS
What are the symptoms in detail
How fast/ slow are you going? 70 and above.
Full or part throttle. Part throttle at around 70 although remains the symptoms remain constant above.
What gear how warm / cold. is the bike. 6th gear and fully warm.
Does it do it under load or no load Does it cruising, accelerating.
When you start the bike does it need throttle? does it idle ? at what RPM. No need for throttle, idles fine from memory 1.2/ 1.5 around but not definite.
what does it idle at when warm. No idea at the moment but idles fine with no issues.[/COLOR]
[/COLOR]
How many miles has the bike done 60.000 miles.
When were the plugs / oil / airfilter changed. All changed recently and at intervals but the original symptoms remain, just got worse recently since working on it and majorly since messing with the TPS.
Throttle cable slack checked. No.
Adaptations cleared No.
Stepper motors synced / adjusted. No.
Untill youve put a known good TPS on the bike, you cant rule that out completley
have you tried running the bike with the primary & secondary coils disconnected? what was the result. Yes, with secondary coils removed the bike was running at idle but not taken on the road the bike still ran ok. Disconnected one primary at a time and noticed a difference each side so do not believe that the coils are at fault. Two new primary coils were previously fitted and two second hand secondary's were fitted (newer type with grey ends).
t still could be the TPS - cleaning it isnt always the magic fix, if the track is too far gone, nothing short of a new one will rectify it. New item on it's way.
Going back to basics
And we may cover old ground - sorry
Ignoring the TPS
What are the symptoms in detail
How fast/ slow are you going? 70 and above.
Full or part throttle. Part throttle at around 70 although remains the symptoms remain constant above.
What gear how warm / cold. is the bike. 6th gear and fully warm.
Does it do it under load or no load Does it cruising, accelerating.
When you start the bike does it need throttle? does it idle ? at what RPM. No need for throttle, idles fine from memory 1.2/ 1.5 around but not definite.
what does it idle at when warm. No idea at the moment but idles fine with no issues.[/COLOR]
[/COLOR]
How many miles has the bike done 60.000 miles.
When were the plugs / oil / airfilter changed. All changed recently and at intervals but the original symptoms remain, just got worse recently since working on it and majorly since messing with the TPS.
Throttle cable slack checked. No.
Adaptations cleared No.
Stepper motors synced / adjusted. No.
Untill youve put a known good TPS on the bike, you cant rule that out completley
have you tried running the bike with the primary & secondary coils disconnected? what was the result. Yes, with secondary coils removed the bike was running at idle but not taken on the road the bike still ran ok. Disconnected one primary at a time and noticed a difference each side so do not believe that the coils are at fault. Two new primary coils were previously fitted and two second hand secondary's were fitted (newer type with grey ends).
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