Byway and RUPP "Catalogue"

Clive

Clive

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I've hopefully learnt a few things from my Exploring Byways thread (http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40026) about documenting byways and RUPPs.

I was thinking it might be nice to have a formal "catalogue" in this section with entries in a standard format, waypoint naming structure etc organised e.g. by Explorer Map.

Too pipe'n'slippers ?
Do people prefer a more anarchic approach ? :D
 
great clive that was the sort of thing i was hoping for when i suggested this forum. I have at least one route myself to put in here where i work out the grid references etc.,

:beer:
 
Clive said:
I've hopefully learnt a few things from my Exploring Byways thread (http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40026) about documenting byways and RUPPs.

I was thinking it might be nice to have a formal "catalogue" in this section with entries in a standard format, waypoint naming structure etc organised e.g. by Explorer Map.

Too pipe'n'slippers ?
Do people prefer a more anarchic approach ? :D
Click to expand...

Clive...great idea:thumb

We can easily do this within the current framework......we have a 'secret' section called the 'faquers production area' where the likes of meself, Master Dabber, Mouse and several others have worked on FAQ's for things....when it's ready, we then transfer the thread to the relevant forum, sticky-fy it and the thread starter becomes responsible for updating and maintaining the 'faq' or in this case 'catalogue'........

We can easily add you to that section if you like, then you could stick posts here or in the B&B to get more info, compile the 'catalogue' and then launch it......we'd close it off and then if you wanted to update it you do that in the 'secret' area then update the actual public thread as and when it's ready.

Let me know if you fancy a crack at it and I'll ask Paul to add you to the FAQ production team :thumb

Cheers

Bill
 
Ps what do others think???

I've certainly got a few routes, and a few nice fords tours waypointed that could be added to a GS-able routes section.....I'm sure the likes of Bandit, Blue Sweeper and Greg M will also have a few as well.....does anyone think it'd be a good thing that would be usefull to the unwashed GS masses???

:)
 
PS I should warn you that you'd get the title 'moderator' and once you're in, there's no way back to sanity ;)
 
Fanum said:
Let me know if you fancy a crack at it and I'll ask Paul to add you to the FAQ production team
Click to expand...

That's what I'm after...Power :D

I'll give it a go - at worse I can only screw it up ;)
 
nice idea guys. :thumb

maybe something like this will coax out those who don't venture off road because they don't know where they can, or don't want to be alone when they do.

:beerjug:
 
Degree of difficulty...

similar to wetroads - a difficulty rating is probably a good idea

1* Easy - in all weather conditions (e.g. for GS with Tourances/Novices)
2* Moderate - could be muddy in wet weather, sandy (e.g. for GS with TKC80s/Experienced)
3* Hard - deep mud, technical sections, steep hills (e.g. for Experienced GS riders in a group)
4* 'Kin Difficult - Pogosticks only

This may need expanding on - suggestions ?

When I started, I found deep ruts quite difficult, what do others class as "Easy" "Moderate" etc
 
carcher2k said:
nice idea guys. :thumb

maybe something like this will coax out those who don't venture off road because they don't know where they can, or don't want to be alone when they do.

:beerjug:
Click to expand...

I've been down some Byways which are nothing more than unadopted gravel driveways past peoples front gardens and other that you need to be on a mountain goat to get up on a wet day in March.

I'm hoping that *all* byways can be listed even if they are "not very interesting" so others can avoid them. Also documented usage may be useful to groups such as the TRF.
 
Fanum said:
Ps what do others think???

I've certainly got a few routes, and a few nice fords tours waypointed that could be added to a GS-able routes section.....I'm sure the likes of Bandit, Blue Sweeper and Greg M will also have a few as well.....does anyone think it'd be a good thing that would be usefull to the unwashed GS masses???

:)
Click to expand...


Sounds like a very good idea Bill, Clive. I could put quite a few off-road routes up on the board for Surrey, Sussex and parts of Hampshire.

Roy.
 
Would it be useful to store the information in a computer readable format? I'm thinking of something analagous to the ford waypoint database, in a common file format (probably GPX) that is widely understood by various mapping / GPS software.

For example, I've got my own computerised "lane database" that I'm slowly building up. I store the lanes themselves as tracks, with waypoints at places that the lane meets "normal" roads. Admittedly this is tailored to my personal requirements, the idea being that I can transfer the information to my GPSR, and have the lanes shown in the track log, with a waypoint that I can route to to find the start of the lane.

The GPX file format allows for a waypoint description and comment, so I use these fields to store notes about the lane, for example stuff like "dirt track, a few rocks, easy" - just a simple note to remind me of the conditions. I also (like with the ford database) include a "difficulty rating" in the waypoint names, for example "L1-Corwen5" indicates an easy lane (difficulty 1 to 3 but we could use 4 to mean "not GS-able" - we could also use 0 to mean "not very interesting") that is the fifth I catalogued in the Corwen area. The actual name is just taken from the nearest large(ish) town.

It would also be useful to have an indication of whether the lane has been confirmed as a byway, presumably from the local authority's definitive map (something I haven't done for mine yet), with a datestamp so that people can check themselves if the information might be out of date.

I'd be happy to help with the technical aspects of this project, if people decide this is a good idea.
 
Clive said:
similar to wetroads - a difficulty rating is probably a good idea

1* Easy - in all weather conditions (e.g. for GS with Tourances/Novices)
2* Moderate - could be muddy in wet weather, sandy (e.g. for GS with TKC80s/Experienced)
3* Hard - deep mud, technical sections, steep hills (e.g. for Experienced GS riders in a group)
4* 'Kin Difficult - Pogosticks only

This may need expanding on - suggestions ?

When I started, I found deep ruts quite difficult, what do others class as "Easy" "Moderate" etc
Click to expand...

It's all a bit subjective, but I think your classifications are broadly OK. I think lanes have to be classified by an reasonably experienced rider, otherwise they'd all be "hard" :D
 
Mouse said:
Would it be useful to store the information in a computer readable format? I'm thinking of something analagous to the ford waypoint database, in a common file format (probably GPX) that is widely understood by various mapping / GPS software.
Click to expand...

Do you use Mapsource ?

The version I have (6.8) can read (and write) a GPX file, but doesn't make a distinction between "Comment" and "Description"

I amended a Mapsource GPX file to change the description e.g.

<wpt lat="51.358511" lon="-1.043448">
<time>2005-08-16T09:07:01Z</time>
<name>SU667626</name>
<cmt>Devil's Highway</cmt>
<desc>Some extra stuff added here for Devil's Highway</desc>
<sym>Waypoint</sym>
<extensions>
<gpxx:WaypointExtension xmlns:gpxx="http://www.garmin.com/xmlschemas/GpxExtensions/v2" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xsi:schemaLocation="http://www.garmin.com/xmlschemas/GpxExtensions/v2 http://www.garmin.com/xmlschemas/GpxExtensions/v2/GpxExtensionsv2.xsd">
<gpxx:DisplayMode>SymbolAndName</gpxx:DisplayMode>
</gpxx:WaypointExtension>
</extensions>
</wpt>

But there doesn't appear to be anywhere in Mapsource to view the Description i.e. only the Comment is shown.

EDIT: Of course the bit above is supposed to be XML but you can't see that unless you "Quote" :)
 
Mouse said:
The GPX file format allows for a waypoint description and comment, so I use these fields to store notes about the lane, for example stuff like "dirt track, a few rocks, easy" - just a simple note to remind me of the conditions. I also (like with the ford database) include a "difficulty rating" in the waypoint names, for example "L1-Corwen5" indicates an easy lane (difficulty 1 to 3 but we could use 4 to mean "not GS-able" - we could also use 0 to mean "not very interesting") that is the fifth I catalogued in the Corwen area. The actual name is just taken from the nearest large(ish) town.
Click to expand...

Mapsource/Garmin 2610 is restricted to a 10 character name for a Waypoint so I was going to start using a shortened version of the co-ordinates in Ordance Survey format e.g. one end of the Devil's highway is SU 69181 62770 so that would become
SU692623
This has the advantage of being found easily when you are trying to match your location (from the GPSR) to the paper map

This could be extended to have a rating as a Suffix (I'd prefer as a Suffix rather than Prefix since I'd generally be looking for those in an area rather than those of a difficulty rating) e.g. SU692623L4

There is a "URL Link" facility in Mapsource so I was assuming that each Byway would have its own "Thread" in this section - there, as well as its standard format set of details, would be photos and comments from people who had used it.
 
Naming the waypoints after the coordinates is an interesting idea.

My rationale for having "L2" (or whatever) as a prefix was to group all the lane waypoints together in the listing on the GPS ... but I can't really see an overriding reason to do it that way.

The software I use is indeed MapSource, plus another package called Fugawi, which contains 1:50000 OS maps for the UK and has very similar waypoint / route / track functions as MapSource (but no auto routing). I think you're right about MS not knowing the difference between the comment and description fields - however we only really need one comment per waypoint (probably).

I think we need to thrash out a logical, but not overcomplicated, system for storing this information.

Thoughts on your naming scheme for waypoints:

If you've got the waypoint on a GPSR you can find the coordinates of it from the info screen anyway.

Ideally, every place a lane meets the tarmac, there should be a waypoint (this could be debated) to help people find the most convenient access point. I've been calling these waypoints something like "L1-Corwen5N" meaning the northerly access point to lane "corwen5" which is a difficulty grade 1. Of course character limits come into play here.

If the waypoints were named using coordinates (Clive's scheme) then waypoints allowing access to the same lane would have different names, and no obvious way of linking them.

I don't think either scheme is ideal ... but there's only so much information you can squeeze into 10 characters :)

Thoughts? Should we discuss this via email?
 
Excellent idea. I like the "degree of difficulty" suggestion. I'm reasonably confident with fords, but as for "off-road" I only have Tourances / no crash bars, so it'd save having to turn around & feeling like a chicken!

What format(s) would they be in? e.g. Ordnance Survey Map No./grid reference, or a GPS type thingambob?

I have a couple of suggestions in the NE to get us started, Forest Drive at Kielder (Grade 1, can do it in a Fiesta or on a road bike), and Penny Pie Cottage near Blanchland (maybe 2 or a 3, I've done it on Tourances in the dry without "pinch marks" on the seat), though could increase to 4.5 if the angry game keeper is in one of his moods :D

Oh and Stanhope Ford at, err, Stanhope, note this can get slippy during the algae season (DAMHIK).

Will post Grid References when I get home.
 
Grid references for above;

Forest Drive, Kielder, OS Landranger 80/632935 (approx 10 miles, to A68 between Rochester & Catcleugh Resevoir). Unmettalled, but I've ridden it on a Blackbird, no trouble for a GS.

Pennypie, OS Landranger 87/950518 to 956560 (edge of Slaley Forest). It's totally legit, but the gamekeeper is allegedly under orders to (try to) chase people off anyway.. Don't worry, his bark's worse than his bite. :D Much worse are the flies, which seem to love yellow bikes :eek:

Stanhope Ford OS Landranger 92 (which I haven't got...) on the Stanhope to Middleton-in-Teesdale road. Slippy in hot weather.....usually an audience to encourage / splash you, and an ice-cream van at the south side.
 
Mouse said:
Naming the waypoints after the coordinates is an interesting idea.



I think we need to thrash out a logical, but not overcomplicated, system for storing this information.


Thoughts? Should we discuss this via email?
Click to expand...

Chaps...easiest way maybe. rather than going to email. would be do it on t FAQ production area....Clive's now in there and obviously you have been for a while Mouse....how's about taking this there and you can work on it behind the scenes .

FWIW, I reckon it's more important to get a catalogue first that others can add to via PM or post to Clive, then the GPS data can be worked on as well to back it all up and add user-functionality to the catalogue.

Start it up as a thread in the production area, then the waffle can be tweaked out and the core info left in a useful format for transfer back to the open areas.

Just an idea?

Bill
 
Please please remember which ever way this ends up not everyone uses GPS but good old fashion maps. Possibly Mouses naming idea plus possibly the reference of the OS map i.e Dartmoor is OL28 etc etc

:bow
 
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