Help needed understanding Mapsource

I'm pretty good with Autoroute and so felt my move into Garmin2610/Mapsource would be a breeze. Big mistake. The system appears to be frankly obtuse.
For example, last night I went looking for the Holiday Inn at Brussels Airport. System came back with two Holiday Inns, neither of which at the airport. I typed in Holidaystraat 7 (the address) but the system couldnt find that either. Then 1831 Machelen - same result. After a long and frustrating session, I went back to Autoroute and found the place at once using same address. I went back to Mapsource, now I knew the area I was looking at and, on closer magnification - there it was - a Holiday Inn duly marked - and guess what - its address was shown as Holidaystraat 7. What am I doing wrong?
I also wanted to go to Brussels via the tunnel. Took me ten minutes in "Find places" to try to find anything connected to Channel Tunnel/Eurotunnel/you name it before I gave up in disgust and sheer frustration. Place apparently doesnt exist. Then I thought I would be clever and ping a waypoint on the route of the tunnel as indicated. This worked but only as far as the waypoint itself. Then it had me doing a U turn in the tunnel, presumably with the train and returning to Folkestone before carrying on to Dover for a ferry!
My concern is that these are the obvious howlers that I can see. There must be lots of such opportunities hidden in the detail that I may miss. My confidence is now at a low ebb as to the general mapping integrity of the system. Can anybody out there offer help or advice? I'm sure it must work really?

Ibex:

It does work, and it works fairly well.

It takes a bit of time to get used to the application - to know how to make it do what you want it to do quickly, the first time around. For most users, that comes with practice. If you want to accelerate the process, Garmin has a user manual available free of charge for MapSource, you can download it here: MapSource User's Guide, Rev. C, Jul, 2005.

I found the Holiday Inn you were looking for in about 10 seconds - I just selected FIND, then the FEATURE tab (meaning, a POI), then I selected Lodging as the category of feature, and set 'Belgium' and 'Holiday Inn' as the criteria. MapSource returned a list of all the Holiday Inns in Belgium - I just clicked on the different names in the list until I saw one that was beside the airport. I then clicked on 'Properties' to bring up the little box with the address, phone number, etc.

I was also able to create a route according to the conditions you established without difficulty. The only difference between you and me is that I have a bit more experience working with the program. Browse the manual, experiment with the application a bit, and you will get comfortable with it pretty quickly. Most GIS (Geographic Information Service) applications have a steeper learning curve than other programs, simply because of the complexity of the user interface on the program.

Michael

Your Hotel
<a href="http://www.hostdub.com/PanEuropean:Holiday_Inn:full"><img src="http://www.hostdub.com/albums/PanEuropean/Holiday_Inn.jpg" alt="hostdub.com"></a>

PS: Not too sure if you will get a good night's sleep there - that hotel is pretty close to the end of the runway... ...you might want to ask for a room on the south-east side of the hotel.

Routing

As for the Tunne your routing prefrences can make a diffrence fastest/shortest will change from tunnel to ferry on a quick test the fastest was the Ferry

Mitch

Garmin is by no means perfect.

I can say that and I've never used Autoroute, or any other map product that is not online...

It takes a bit of practice to learn how to deal with the situations that you describe very well, that pop up more often than I'd like. I also think a bit of "the program beating you down" ends up happening... Sometimes it can be frustrating to go looking to grab a waypoint or a POI that you know is there, and have it take ages to get it.

I accept it bacause all the other tools that make working with my GPS so easy are all there too. I can store my tracks, select my map tiles, look at my track profile, keep track of my waypoints, even stick URL's on them... Just before leaving, I download the waypoints and routes to my GPS and go... a very decent travel planning package IMHO.

I often use an online yellow pages, or whatever... find a place on their map.. pan over to the place in Mapsource... and put the waypoint down... saves time and frustration... especially if I'm not sure that the POI is even there...

Al...

The wrong trousers?

Thanks for your comments on my problem. In particular, Pan European, I tried your method, same as I did last night and still got the same result however I noticed that you are on a different version of the software. Mine is v7 - I note yours is European v8. Is the upgrade available as a download?

Dave

Ibex, I am using V7 and Pans way worked for me.

Wow!

Just been to the Garmin website to look at v8 software update - is that the thing that sells for $349.99 or am I reading it wrong (quite possible given my declared skill with the Mapsource v7). For that price I think I need a one to one tuition with Angelina Jolie thrown in!

Kieth - you say you found my hotel on V7? This bit I cant understand as mine only lists 2 Holiday Inns using Pan's method - both central Brussels?

Thanks again,

Dave

araspitfire said:

It takes a bit of practice to learn how to deal with the situations that you describe very well, that pop up more often than I'd like. I also think a bit of "the program beating you down" ends up happening...

Click to expand...

Hello Al:

That is quite true. There are really only two ways to overcome this problem - either spend a fair amount of time working with the program, so you learn by doing, or (perish the thought) read the free User Manual. I'm not trying to take a dig at you particularly when I say that - however, I can't help but being a little bit frustrated that when an organization puts out a very powerful application - something that everyone would have thought was 'Buck Rogers science-fiction stuff' as recently as 20 years ago - a whole lot of users expect to just load it up and wade right in with a high level of proficiency without reading any of the documentation.

GIS systems are by nature complex because they are three dimensional. If the 'database' was simply a two dimensional flat-file database (such as a phone book lookup), it would be simple to find that Hotel - just try searching on different criteria until it appears. With a three dimensional database (text criteria plus visual overlays), you need to know how the program is intended to be used before you can expect to use it proficiently... there ain't no way around it, sorry. Either learn from the 'School of Hard Knocks', or, read the manual carefully, with the application running in front of you, so you can try out the exercises that are described in the manual and thus build comprehension and proficiency.

I encounter the same thing when I am training pilots to fly aircraft that use a 'glass cockpit' or other highly automated Flight Management System. In the old days, you just kicked the tires and lit the fires and off you went. Now, you need to do your homework first, otherwise, you wind up running off the far end of the runway. It's interesting to note that 20 years ago, the most common 'last phrase' found on aircraft voice recorders seconds before the crash was "Oh shit!" - now, it's "I wonder what it's doing now?"

Ibex said:

...I noticed that you are on a different version of the software. Mine is v7 - I note yours is European v8. Is the upgrade available as a download?

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Hi Dave:

The upgrade to the cartography is not available as a download, but it is pretty simple to get it. You contact Garmin and ask them to mail you out an upgrade DVD (version 8), they do that at no charge, then you go online to unlock it and pay the upgrade fee, which is about USD $75 if you already have version 7 of CN Europe. Click this link for more information: Update Details for City Navigator Europe v8 DVD. There is probably a website to go to that is specifically for UK users, I don't know what it is but perhaps another forum user might.

Ibex said:

Just been to the Garmin website to look at v8 software update - is that the thing that sells for $349.99 or am I reading it wrong

Click to expand...

You're reading it wrong - I think you are looking at the price for the initial purchase of the complete European cartography. That would not apply to you, you already own the cartography, you just need an update for $75.

Michael

PanEuropean said:

Hello Al:

That is quite true. There are really only two ways to overcome this problem - either spend a fair amount of time working with the program, so you learn by doing, or (perish the thought) read the free User Manual.
Michael

Click to expand...

My very own first Garmin GPS was a (still here on the shelf) GPS38... My first GPS experience, up in the Canadian Artic, was as an underemployed helicoper mechanic, went out with the client for a day and babysat a GPS survey rig that could only take data less than an hour twice a day... (GPS constelation wasn't complete yet...)

I've been using Mapsource since I bought my first mapping GPS, an early Vista 6 years ago...

I use Mapsource almost every day lately, as I plan trips on my new bike... plan trips to to go on in my camper with my wife.... I agree with you (and tried, unsuccessfully, to say it) that what you can do with the technology is amazing... I also agree with you that it's all to easy to see how much better a product could be in theory, and overlook the difficulties and technology hang-ups that prevent it being so.

But it's still frustrating as hell to spend a few minutes looking for something you know is in there, only to find it IS in there with a "find it someplace else and point to it in the software" approach... I was trying to commiserate with the OP, telling him that he's not alone in his struggles, but that it's worth it to keep at it.

But good call on your part.. I've been using Mapsource since the very beginning, and have never read that help file,which I don't think existed back then.... Perhaps it's time I did...

Al...

Well - that's me told!

Thank you once again for your help in getting me on terms with my new toy. If it were too easy it would not offer that feeling of satisfaction when you get it right I suppose. I will go off and read the manual as recommended.

PS very much enjoyed your observation on pilots last words, Pan. Fits my professional background as well and will be used without mercy from tomorrow morning!

Thanks again,

Dave

You’re not the only one to struggle Ibex, I’ve been using Mapsource for years and still have issues with it.

Take a look at the two maps below; both are of York at around the same scale. OK, they look a little different, but the main problem is with place names. On the picture below I see Malton, Easingwold, Boroughbridge, Market Weighton, Ripon etc, it’s a very typical representation of the area.

Michelin map


Mapsource map


Bottom picture, there gone! and it’s the same all over Europe, at all scales.
I spend a lot of time planning routes and struggle like hell trying to find my way around because the place names on other mapping products don’t readily show up on Mapsource. Yes you can turn up detail, but that doesn’t help as many more names and little roads pop up along with the ones you’re looking for, littering the screen and confusing the plot.

Ebbo:

There are two factors that affect how the electronic map is depicted on your computer screen. One is the level of detail that you select (you mentioned that), but the other is what zoom level you happen to using when you look at the map. There is an inter-relationship between these two variables, and I think if you play around with the detail level and look at different zoom views with different levels of detail, you will probably be able to get the map depiction quite close to what you want.

As for finding small towns, or finding towns / cities / huge urban agglomerations that don't appear on the map at the zoom level or level of detail you have active - the fix is easy. Just press CONTROL + F to bring up the 'find' dialog, touch the tab that says 'City', and type in the name of the city. Don't enter a country, state, or county name - you really don't need to, because once you type in the first few letters of the city name (e.g. Malt... for Malton), you will see that a drop-down list will appear below that you can choose from.

Choose the town name you are seeking, and either press OK if you just want to view it, or press CREATE WAYPOINT if you have further interest in it. Once you create a waypoint, even if it is for a hamlet of 20 people, the waypoint itself will remain visible at very wide zoom levels. You can always delete that waypoint later if you have no further interest in it.

Michael

Thanks Michael, but at that level of mapping shown, Mapsource should be showing the pretty much what Michelin mapping and most of the other do, not the small villages like Stillington, Bransby??? etc. Why doesn’t it show Helmsley, a major size market town about 4 miles Nth East of Amplforth? Where’s Malton and Easigwold gone??

It’s showing villages, sometimes very small villages, instead of the towns it should, and it’s the same all over Europe as far as I can tell.

It’s very poor when you’re trying to transfer routes form Michelin maps to Mapsource and the maps don’t seem to match up because the towns are not shown in Mapsource

Think I'll buy a TomTom, appears to be far less confusing!!!! What's supposed to be the great deal over Garmin and Mapsource / Navigator????????

YosemitePaul said:

Think I'll buy a TomTom, appears to be far less confusing!!!! What's supposed to be the great deal over Garmin and Mapsource / Navigator????????

Click to expand...

at least with garmin you get the chance to puzzle out HTF mapsource works on a PC.

AFAIK you do it all on the gps unit with tom tom's

I've been using mapsource for years, and work in IT. I regard myself as pretty proficient in PCs and applications.
I find the Mapsource search/find is truely apauling. Its what stops me recommending Garmin to my Dad. I consistently cannot find addresses that exist on the maps. In the days of Google and post code matches Garmin's search effort is totally unacceptable.
I often end up find the address on GoogleMaps and then Xreferencing to Mapsource.
If I have time tonight I'll try and reproduce one of its 'oddities'.
J

jimbo said:

I've been using mapsource for years, and work in IT. I regard myself as pretty proficient in PCs and applications.
I find the Mapsource search/find is truely apauling. Its what stops me recommending Garmin to my Dad. I consistently cannot find addresses that exist on the maps. In the days of Google and post code matches Garmin's search effort is totally unacceptable.
I often end up find the address on GoogleMaps and then Xreferencing to Mapsource.
If I have time tonight I'll try and reproduce one of its 'oddities'.
J

Click to expand...

I couldn’t agree more Jimbo, I do the same myself but use Mappoint, viamichelin.com and paper maps. It’s very frustrating, and hard work.

But I do recommend Garmin GPS’s and Mapsource, with care and not a little work, you can make up routes and waypoints that will take you on a trip all around Europe without needing to look at a map when you riding it, leaving you free to enjoy it.

Michael, If you know anyone in Garmin who would be interested, can you ask them to read this tread please.

Martin

On the subject of "why Garmin", I can offer the following...

The ability to plan your route on a computer (that is connected to the internet) is invaluable for things such as motorcycle touring.

Mapsource allows you to make up a file with routes, and waypoints (with URL info in them)... The day before your trip, downoad the works to your GPS and you are ready to go. No need to look at a map, just ride and follow the turn prompts... if you see something interesting that is off route... ride it and follow the prompts back to your route later...

The ability to look at where you rode, collect up all your tracks and waypoints and put them in single file... then process them and publish an "I rode here" image to stuff into your travel pictures is great... You can look at altitude profiles as well. You can even take a tracklog and "georefrence" your digital images if you want, like haveing a GPS in your camera...

But not having used TomTom or Magellan GPS's at all, I can't say if any of them won't do the above... But I wouldn't even buy a Garmin that didn't have PC route planning and a decent tracklog memory...

Al...

Its what stops me recommending Garmin to my Dad.

Click to expand...

Just to be clear, I think that generally Mapsource and Garmin are the business, I have recommended them in the past for friends as well as buying two of them myself.

BUT for the technically challenged, like my dear old father, all the 'power' features will be of no interest or comprehension. Unfortunately so will the 'find address' feature. He needs to be able to bang in a postcode and get there.

jimbo said:

He needs to be able to bang in a postcode and get there.

Click to expand...

the new units do that now, but why has it taken them so long?