650 or 800?

birdseye · Dec 1, 2007

All the talk on here is about the 800, yet the 650 is an 800 with a little less power (prob wouldnt be noticed day to day), a bit less suspension movement and a more sensible seat height. All at a significant saving. Seems to me that its a better bet even if you were going travelling.

Could it be that the focus is on the 800 because the bigger number gives it more bike cred? Bit like the way many people buy the 1200Adv rather than the 1200GS?

mr moto · Dec 1, 2007

i am seriously thinking of getting the new 650 twin , and will be first in line for a test ride . even after you add on the ABS, and the computer , it still works out a good bit cheaper than the 800 , and with the softer state of tune it will give better fuel economy, and with the engine being less stressed it should bode well for reliability . also as a short arse it should be a good comfortable fit with the lower seat option of 790mm , without having to screw up the handling by lowering the suspension . add in tubeless tyres and a more road biased front wheel and tyre size , it all makes perfect sense . i loved my 650 dakar but, i always thought it needed just a little more power for those long motorway runs .
fit a set of metal mules , and a decent bash plate , and it,s all the thing,s i need/want from a bike . i just hope the test ride goes ok and i am not dissapointed .

Gipsy · Dec 1, 2007

My wife ordered one today ( F 650 ). Delivery mid March!

Beemer Joe · Dec 4, 2007

GSmonkey said:
If I had to choose between the 650 and 800, I'd wait until they were both available, then test them back-to-back. Statistics very rarely tell you what you need to know about a bike.

I concur. To me they both look fantastic and I reckon it's great to have two similarish options to choose from. I am looking forward to trying them both out and am keeping an open mind until then.

:clap

Just to add; I ride a 1100gs rated at 80bhp and these much lighter bikes are slightly less/ more powerful respectively. Exciting, me thinks :clap

mr moto · Dec 4, 2007

Beemer Joe said:
Where did you get that pic? It's a beaut

lot,s more pic,s here ...http://www.bmwmoa.org/features/new_milan07.htm?pg=F650GS

BLUEJAY · Dec 5, 2007

mr moto said:
i am seriously thinking of getting the new 650 twin , and will be first in line for a test ride . even after you add on the ABS, and the computer , it still works out a good bit cheaper than the 800 , and with the softer state of tune it will give better fuel economy, and with the engine being less stressed it should bode well for reliability . also as a short arse it should be a good comfortable fit with the lower seat option of 790mm , without having to screw up the handling by lowering the suspension . add in tubeless tyres and a more road biased front wheel and tyre size , it all makes perfect sense . i loved my 650 dakar but, i always thought it needed just a little more power for those long motorway runs .
fit a set of metal mules , and a decent bash plate , and it,s all the thing,s i need/want from a bike . i just hope the test ride goes ok and i am not dissapointed .

Hi folks,
despite I say a test ride is a must, allow me to say what substantial differences I see between the two bikes (which will lead me towards the 800... :augie

) from the "pure" papers...

F800
A. Double front disc brakes and double callipers ( I have a '650 GS and on alpine steep downhills the brakes give up easily....). This is a strong point to me, regardless of where you ride (actually, I think it matters even more for road users) and enough to make me pick this bike.

B. 21" front rim, a "must" if you want to do a little off-road riding

.

C. Spoke wheel (as said for mark.B)

D. As said,a longer suspension travelling (guess it doesn't matter much for road use :blast

)

E. Upside down forks (Some say they are better :rob

)

Apart from the price difference, I do not see any other strong point in choosing the 650 over the 800 but again, they must be test ridden :rob

.

Besides, who knows whether there will be hidden differences (e.g. gearbox....)

...waiting game....

Only my 2 cents
Cheers to all
:beerjug:

Gipsy · Dec 5, 2007

As my wife is choosing between the 650 and the 800, it has to be the 650. She just isn't tall enough for the 800! Having had a 650 for several years before getting rid of it some years back she has a fair idea of what she's letting herself in for. We don't intentionally ride off-road, and she wanted a bike for prolonged touring/camping trips with luggage and comfortable for long distances. Seems to me the 650 ticks most of the boxes. One last thing, before peeps suggest it may be a bit underpowered, and wouldn't she be better with lowered 1150 or 1200, this isn't an issue, as she's keeping her blade. ( 20000 miles in 2 seasons riding ) She describes it as the best sports tourer in the world. As her T shirt says, you don't need balls to ride a fast bike.

Tim Cullis · Dec 5, 2007

BLUEJAY said:
allow me to say what substantial differences I see between the two bikes (which will lead me towards the 800...)

Sounds to me like you've made your mind up before a test ride. If the 21-in front wheel is so essential, how come the 1100/1150/1200 variants don't have one? And there's sod all advantage having spoked wheel when the rim is cast alloy and not repairable.

The differences between the 658 and the 800 are mainly marketing ones, to substantiate a low entry point for those who are looking for a 650-priced bike, and a £1200 higher entry point for those who want more kudos. The difference in height between the screens is minimal and there will undoubtedly be other third party alternatives. The bash plate standard on the 800 isn't particularly useful as it doesn't cover the oil filter.

Stick a decent bash plate and some Zega or Metal Mule panniers on the 658 and it's ready for RTW.

Tim

power2learn · Dec 5, 2007

Tim Cullis said:
Sounds to me like you've made your mind up before a test ride. If the 21-in front wheel is so essential, how come the 1100/1150/1200 variants don't have one? And there's sod all advantage having spoked wheel when the rim is cast alloy and not repairable.

The differences between the 658 and the 800 are mainly marketing ones, to substantiate a low entry point for those who are looking for a 650-priced bike, and a £1200 higher entry point for those who want more kudos. The difference in height between the screens is minimal and there will undoubtedly be other third party alternatives. The bash plate standard on the 800 isn't particularly useful as it doesn't cover the oil filter.

Stick a decent bash plate and some Zega or Metal Mule panniers on the 658 and it's ready for RTW.

Tim

Sounds sensible to me.

I prefer the look of the 800 tho' - not sure what the difference is in the area around the top of the forks / beak / tank, but it just looks more 'proper' than the photos I've seen of the 650.

On the other hand, I'm not sure the differences are worth 20-25% (-ish) more than the cost of the 650. My 12GS has cast wheels and shorter suspension than the adv, yet it's still better off-road than I am....

I think the main problem is the moniker - how many bikers are going to be happy owning an 800cc bike with '650' plastered on the side :blast

?

How many times are you going to have to have that conversation:
'Ah, well, it says 650, but actually it's an 800....'
'but why the feck would they do that?'
'...product differentiation don't-ya-know.... :rob

'
[shudder].

If it puts enough people off, they might have to rename it after 6-12 months, leaving you with one of the few weirdly named 800cc 650s :thedummy

I know, I know, I'm being both shallow and paranoid, but it's just not right.

T>

BLUEJAY · Dec 6, 2007

Tim Cullis said:
Sounds to me like you've made your mind up before a test ride.

You got me on this one

I must admit that if an 800 engine will be, it's going to be the 800GS....no doubts :thumb2

Tim Cullis said:
If the 21-in front wheel is so essential, how come the 1100/1150/1200 variants don't have one? And there's sod all advantage having spoked wheel when the rim is cast alloy and not repairable.

Sorry but I disagree.
A 21" front tyre makes a hell of a difference for (even light) off-road :nono

Tim Cullis said:
The differences between the 658 and the 800 are mainly marketing ones, to substantiate a low entry point for those who are looking for a 650-priced bike, and a £1200 higher entry point for those who want more kudos. The difference in height between the screens is minimal and there will undoubtedly be other third party alternatives.

No way !
The 800GS is more OR oriented than the 650 (which I think it's been "adapted" from the 800 for road users).

Tim Cullis said:
The bash plate standard on the 800 isn't particularly useful as it doesn't cover the oil filter.

Agree on the bashplate/oil filter protection.
They could have easily done a much better job with a little effort. :spitfire

Tim Cullis said:
Stick a decent bash plate and some Zega or Metal Mule panniers on the 658 and it's ready for RTW.

Tim

Again, altough the two bikes look similar (from a far away distance :augie

), they are two different bikes.

I saw them in the flesh (and sat on them) at the recent EICMA in Milan and believe me, a set of panniers doesn't make any difference on the final result. :nono

Btw, anyone is free to hold on to their opinion.
I have been waiting for a bike like this (on paper, at least

) to come out for a long time and I am going to be lined up for a test ride asap.

Then, we'll see....

Cheers
:beerjug:

willow70 · May 25, 2008

Fair Comparison?

Hello Everyone,

I am a Pommie living in Brisbane,Australia and have a F800GS on order which i won't see until December or January 2009 at this point.
I stupidly sold my 05' GSA 1150 in readiness(way to soon) and am now getting around on my DR650.My problem is that i am now getting impatient and starting to look at the plethora of present and upcoming adventure bikes(confirmed and rumoured) from various manufacturers but could maybe hold off if i could get an idea what the F800GS may be like,i haven't even seen one in the flesh so to speak let alone thrown a leg over one.......ooooer!
Would the new F650 give me a reasonable idea as they are just available here and i could demo one of these or are they completely different beasts.
My concern is that one of these other models will become available before the 800 and because i have the patience of a five year old i will part with the money and regret it later.

Any thoughts?

Cheers

David

Argonaught · May 25, 2008

Hi David,

I've had my 800Gs since March now, after riding an Africa Twin for 3 years. I've not ben on the new 650GS, apart from sitting on one at the shows & at the dealer, so I can't offer you an experience of comparison (i'm sure those posts will follow soon enough), but i would say this:

The 800gs is a GREAT bike. It's as good in the flesh as it looks in the pictures, & lets not kid ourselves, a significant part of bike ownership is pride of ownership, the 800 has it in spades. It looks the business, is man sized, & fulfills the brief of a dual purpose bike extremely well. In many ways it reminds me of a Honda (can i say that here?) in that it's effortlessly capable, sure footed & confidence inspiring. It gives you the feeling that its on your side, not a bike that you have to fight or wrestle. & i'd also add that perhaps after an 1150 GSA you may well find the 650 'undersized'. Just my opinion of course. But for what it's worth... in a word...

Wait.

willow70 · May 27, 2008

Thanks for the reply Argonaught,you raise valid points and its good to get an owners perspective of what i can expect.
Although i would still like to know whether riding the new F650 would give me a feel for the F800GS or not?.

chrisjk · May 27, 2008

I had a chance recently to ride a new F 650 GS. It had a lowered seat and in consequence was a lot lower than my 800. The bike was nice to ride, no doubt, however it felt like a different machine altogether. Certainly I could see and feel many similarities but I wouldn't advocate it as a buying guide for the 800 - other than to say the 800 feels at least as nice

and more confidence inspiring off-road.

Tim Cullis · Jun 5, 2008

I thought I'd resurrect this thread with an interesting graph from a Scandanavian magazine comparing engine torque and HP between
- BMW 800GS
- BMW 650GS
- Kawasaki Versys
- Suzuki V-strom
- Honda Transalp

The graphs show that the additional 14BHP of the F800 mainly comes in above 7,000 revs. Up to 5,000 revs the F650 puts out slightly more torque and HP. This helps to explain why I failed to see any difference between the two bikes on test rides.

As standard the F800 is lower geared with a 16:42 sprocket combo against the 17:41 of the F650 which will help acceleration but make it less relaxed for higher speed cruising.

Tim

twisticles · Jun 6, 2008

So what you're really saying is, don't buy a transalp? :nenau

HTWB · Jun 6, 2008

Very interesting graph, Tim. Official figures for 800/650 are:

Power 85/71 at 7500/7000

Torque 83/75 at 5750/4500

whereas the graph is

power 77/66.5 at 8200/7600

torque 72.8/73.5 at 5800/5100

presumably the difference is power losses between engine and backwheel?

% Losses are
power 9.4/6.3
torque 12.3/2.0

why is the 800 so much down on torque?

Still, nice to know my 650 has more torque than the 800 :aidan

(Assuming my sums are correct)

Uriel · Jun 6, 2008

This moth's Bike magazine have their 800 tested as 92hp...

tip · Jun 6, 2008

Is that the same article where the guy keeps saying over and over that the F800 GS is not the 1200??? :nenau

As I read the article I kept thinking "WTF is his point, of course it's not a 1200, it's an 800, says so right on the side panel"

I think it was one of the worst/redundant articles I've ever read in that mag

Navy Boy · Sep 10, 2008

Which one to hire?

Hi there

A question for you if I may. Mrs NB and I are heading off to South Africa this Xmas. The plan is to hire a bike during the first week of our stay and travel down to Mpumulanga, re-living some of my youth and having a look around this beautiful part of the country.

I've managed to narrow the choice down to a 650 (Latest twin cylinder model) or 800 GS. Both would come with Panniers and a GPS so I just need to decide which one.

There'd be some motorway travelling involved but also plenty of nice A-road action. All of it would be 2-up with some luggage though once we get there we'd leave the stuff at the guest lodge.

Will the lower level of grunt and shorter suspension of the 650 prove to be a hinderance? There's a reasonable difference in price over the 7 days (Some 10-15%). Or would the 650 prove to be just as good but for less money?

Thoughts/experiences required please.

650 or 800?

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