2 x GS1200 engine Knackered , part 2

[skidave4202]

After long wait ,,,,
Thankyou Alan Jeffries, you have helped and been on my side all the way......
After my dads engine going pop i hoped mine would be ok!!!! But sure enough mine followed suit at 12000 miles! right hand piston died!! not sure of full details, but jeffries have told me me new engine on its way!!!! even though bike out of warranty early 04 model....
i have to pay 1/2 labour cost, better than dad who had to pay full labour....
Should we argue about costs, im not sure!!!!

BUT i think there is a problem with early 1200,s but maybe not enough for a full recall, so BMW are keeping affected customers happy ISH!!!!

Anybody got any thoughts!!!!!!!

 

[red1]

Are there any "legal-eagles" out there that could a true or false to my thoughts on warranties? Remembering that a manufacturer's warranty does not affect your consumer statutory rights.

OK, here goes.

Scenario.
Go to Comet. Buy a 50" plasma TV. 2 years after purchase and now 1 year out of manufacturers warranty, it goes "POP"!!
Comet say, very sorry but it's out of warranty.
You say: "F**k" and go buy a new one.

But, what about the Consumer Protection Act (or whatever it's called) and that little phrase that seemingly gets very little use "FIT FOR PURPOSE".

Now on a very basic, non-legal, non-technical, viewpoint, that to me means that the product (TV or even, yes you've guessed, a BMW motorcycle) has to be built to do what it says on the packaging.

So, is 2 years the manufacturers idea of the lifespan of a 50" plasma TV? If so should we be told at time of purchase that it will probably only last 2 years?

And, when a 2004 GS1200 blows up after 12,000 miles, should we have been told at time of purchase that we'd probably need a new one around 12-14K??
When sold was it fit for the purpose of being ridden? How long should it remain fit to be ridden?
Are our expectations of, dare I say Japanese reliability, too high with a BMW product?
My expectations when buying a product of this type and value are that it should be fit to endure at least 80-100K with no major component problems. Is that to much to expect? If it is, then I expect the manufacturer to tell me exactly their expected lifespan of the product before purchase.

Tell the dealer/BMW that the bike(s) were not fit for purpose. They only lasted 12K (age in years is not material to the argument) which is outside of what could be assumed is the working life of the product and its major components.

So was the above total tosh?

 

[deaninkl]

Are there any "legal-eagles" out there that could a true or false to my thoughts on warranties? Remembering that a manufacturer's warranty does not affect your consumer statutory rights.

OK, here goes.

Scenario.
Go to Comet. Buy a 50" plasma TV. 2 years after purchase and now 1 year out of manufacturers warranty, it goes "POP"!!
Comet say, very sorry but it's out of warranty.
You say: "F**k" and go buy a new one.

But, what about the Consumer Protection Act (or whatever it's called) and that little phrase that seemingly gets very little use "FIT FOR PURPOSE".

Now on a very basic, non-legal, non-technical, viewpoint, that to me means that the product (TV or even, yes you've guessed, a BMW motorcycle) has to be built to do what it says on the packaging.

So, is 2 years the manufacturers idea of the lifespan of a 50" plasma TV? If so should we be told at time of purchase that it will probably only last 2 years?

And, when a 2004 GS1200 blows up after 12,000 miles, should we have been told at time of purchase that we'd probably need a new one around 12-14K??
When sold was it fit for the purpose of being ridden? How long should it remain fit to be ridden?
Are our expectations of, dare I say Japanese reliability, too high with a BMW product?
My expectations when buying a product of this type and value are that it should be fit to endure at least 80-100K with no major component problems. Is that to much to expect? If it is, then I expect the manufacturer to tell me exactly their expected lifespan of the product before purchase.

Tell the dealer/BMW that the bike(s) were not fit for purpose. They only lasted 12K (age in years is not material to the argument) which is outside of what could be assumed is the working life of the product and its major components.

So was the above total tosh?

Well said Red1, there are far to many riders here telling us we should expect problems.... and live with them... it's mechanical..... I'm with you, BMW push luxury and reliability. They should live up to it.

If BMW want to over complicate their bikes with car technology them make sure the stuff is reliable. And that does include the pistaon and con rods.

I would expect my son 150 chinese made trial bike to do that so I think 12k from a BMW a little disapointing.

Frankly Scidave with your experience I would probably get it running then selling it and wondering over to Honda.

 

[red1]

deanilk, this isn't a bash BMW thing, although I think that you're correct in the assumption that too many owners are accepting major issues that just don't occur with other manufacturers products.

The main point of my original response was to put forward this "Fit for purpose" phrase. I know for certain that it has been put to use by car purchasers when they have had serious problems soon after purchase, and they have had refunds or replacement vehicles.

My question really is, "At a time when car and motorcycle engines have an engineered capability of exceeding 100,000 miles when serviced correctly, is it acceptable for a manufacturer to ignore responsibility when an engine explodes within the first 50% of that mileage?"

Our "fit for purpose" is upto 100,000 miles, what's the manufacturers idea of "fit for purpose"?

If you ask your dealer he'll tell you that a BMW "will go on forever" or as the latest BMW ad says "unstopable".
So, ask the dealer the question, "How far is "will go on forever" ?
..... "How far is "unstopable""

 

[Sgt Bilco]

I don`t think "fit for purpose" is an issue here. The bikes have been OK since 04 and have done what it said on the tin i.e been ridden around for 3/4 years with no major issues. Therefore, they are fit for the purpose they were bought for IMHO.

Unfortunately, and it is unfortunate in the extreme to have 2 engine`s go in the same family, they have suffered mechanical failures which can happen to anything.

I had a new Audi A6 a few years ago and it went through 4 gearboxes in quick succession amongst other issues. It was a lot more money than a bike but these things happen and as long as the manufacturer puts it right, that`s all you can reasonably expect. Nothing is bullit proof and a salesman saying "it`ll go on forever" is only heresay and as long as he doesn`t quote a specific, you are fecked.

An engine issue is very rare on any vehicle these days and I think the goodwill is as good as you will get. You may want to see how far you can push it but being out of warranty, they are obligated to pay anything. In instances like this, BuMW are one of the better manufactures and I`m pretty sure a lot of the Japs would be slamming the door in your face.....

Of course, you can go and buy a Honda but they do have issues as well. `d be sticking with BuMW and chopping it in for a new one. They will give you a good deal on a new one I suspect.....!!

 

[Paul90]

Personally I think that a major engine failure at 12,000 miles is wholly and without doubt "not fit for purpose".

IMHO most courts would find in your favour if the case is presented competently.

IMHO BMW would most likely settle out of court and fix for free if you pursue it the right way.

Of course you risk loosing the "goodwill" gesture if you reject the first offer and BMW know that, which is why their first offer is low. Standard practice.

 

[deaninkl]

deanilk, this isn't a bash BMW thing, although I think that you're correct in the assumption that too many owners are accepting major issues that just don't occur with other manufacturers products.

The main point of my original response was to put forward this "Fit for purpose" phrase. I know for certain that it has been put to use by car purchasers when they have had serious problems soon after purchase, and they have had refunds or replacement vehicles.

My question really is, "At a time when car and motorcycle engines have an engineered capability of exceeding 100,000 miles when serviced correctly, is it acceptable for a manufacturer to ignore responsibility when an engine explodes within the first 50% of that mileage?"

Our "fit for purpose" is upto 100,000 miles, what's the manufacturers idea of "fit for purpose"?

If you ask your dealer he'll tell you that a BMW "will go on forever" or as the latest BMW ad says "unstopable".
So, ask the dealer the question, "How far is "will go on forever" ?
..... "How far is "unstopable""

Point taken Red1, and I don't mean to bash, I love my GS, just want it to be as reliable as it rides. Engine failure is and will be rare by volume of sales, a pig whan it happens. Dave you will just have to go for it with the dealer, you have a good argument and red1's "fit for purpose" is very valid. In the end you have to figure what the good will is worth to you?

 

[red1]

The motorcycle manufacturers who do business in the US all (AFAIK) offer some fantastic extended warranties. Honda, for example, give a normal warranty and them allow you to buy additional years for a few hundred dollars. I'm not sure of the exact times and costs but I'm pretty sure for say $300 you can have a total of 6 years unlimited mileage warranty on your Pan or Goldwing. BMW do something similar but not sure of the terms.

Why is it that these extended warranties are not available in the EU? I'm sure if BMW offered a total of 6 years unlimited mileage warranty for £300 they would be unindated by GS owners.

 

[trebor]

It was nice meeting and chatting to you today at Devil's Bridge, skidave. Hope your and your Dad's bikes are sorted PDQ, but I should imagine you're not in too much of a rush with that new KTM to blast about on

Bob
(Namibia Orange GS)

 

[Steptoe]

Personally I think that a major engine failure at 12,000 miles is wholly and without doubt "not fit for purpose".

IMHO most courts would find in your favour if the case is presented competently.

IMHO BMW would most likely settle out of court and fix for free if you pursue it the right way.

.

So long as the owner followed the checks recommended = check the oil daily

 

[philwood90]

My 06 GSA only lasted 6500 miles. I was on the third day of my month long honeymoon tour of europe. The bike decided to drop a valve into the piston RHS. BMW treated us like shit.

Expect nothing and you cant be disapointed

 

[Lugs]

Yesterday my HP2 went pop. Its appears to be the rhs also. is this because it sits to th iopposite and the oild drains away?

Anyway. I'll call BMW tomorrow. My bike ended on warranty in March. Its just been serviced and has only done 9002 road miles. Its pampered and maintained well by Motorrad Central.

I am expecting nothing less than a fully paid out of warranty repair. And I'll be looking for an explanation as to why it happened, and guarantees if it happens again that I'll be covered.

I was looking to swap it for a Megamoto or Adv, but I will wait and see how I get treated first.

Any pointers would be gratefully received.

Ian

 

[Sgt Bilco]

Lugs

Unlucky on the failure and contrary to some folk on this site, they aren`t designed to fail and it`s only bits of metal that can fail at anytime!

My advice would be not to approach BMW in an argumentative and bolshy manner ranting that the feckin thing has only done 9000 miles blah blah but point out that the bike has been maintained by them and be firm and positive in your approach. I`m pretty sure you`ll get positive feedback from customer care.

Good luck with it....

 

[dragontest]

I was thinking of swapping my trusty 1100GS for a 1200gs in a few months or so, is it common for the 1200 motor to go pop?
Does anybody have any figures on the number of damaged engines since the model started, is it just a few or is it a rising number.
It could be of use if GSers had this info to hand so they can pressurise any dealer who tries to avoid fixing a motor that is just out warranty etc. Perhaps forcing BMW to do a full recall…

 

[Sgt Bilco]

I was thinking of swapping my trusty 1100GS for a 1200gs in a few months or so, is it common for the 1200 motor to go pop?
Does anybody have any figures on the number of damaged engines since the model started, is it just a few or is it a rising number.
It could be of use if GSers had this info to hand so they can pressurise any dealer who tries to avoid fixing a motor that is just out warranty etc. Perhaps forcing BMW to do a full recall…

FFS, why would you think it`s an issue for 1200`s to go pop and why would you think that BuMW would do a recall because a couple have failed??? I can`t imagine anyone but BuMW would have the figures on engine issues and yiu would never get those out of them this side of hell freezing over.

A few folk have been unlucky and have posted on here but you never here from the massive percentage of happy owners. I`ve only ever heard of a few engine problems and to be honest and they are no more likely to fail than an 850, 1100, 1150, a Suzuki, Yamaha, Rolls Royce Trent jet engine or Apollo Rocket engine.

A sense of perspective needs to be applied......

 

[Lugs]

Lugs

Unlucky on the failure and contrary to some folk on this site, they aren`t designed to fail and it`s only bits of metal that can fail at anytime!

My advice would be not to approach BMW in an argumentative and bolshy manner ranting that the feckin thing has only done 9000 miles blah blah but point out that the bike has been maintained by them and be firm and positive in your approach. I`m pretty sure you`ll get positive feedback from customer care.

Good luck with it....

I know the drill on goodwill. I'm the DP at a large car dealer and this is something I come across often.

Firm and polite is the name of the game. I'm very relaxed about it. I'm sure they will sort it out.

That said, it could have been a nasty one. 2 minutes prior I was on "The Washboard" coming out of Arrochar and thats the last place I would have wanted that to happen.

I really fancy a Megamoto and this might just spur me on as I'm on HRH's run in two weeks.

All in all, despite the bangs, pops, trying to kill me........it is by far the best bike I have ever owned, and I have had quite a few! I spent all day cleaning her, body panels off, the lot. She is now waiting for Mr RAC to come get her in the morning and take her to Central.

I'll posp tomorrow when I have some more news.

Cheers everybody.

Ian

 

[Daffy]

As bilco said I think "fit for purpose" is pushing it on a 4 year old machine, in my experience you lose that approach after about 12 mths (with commercial vehicles.)

However there are more and more examples where manufacturers are not challenging claims after major failures out of warranty because the courts seem to take a "would I be happy with that attitude" remembering judges will be driving around in quality cars that reflect their status and are used to being looked after.

I don't think there is any legal angle other than the sale of goods act but this gets really complicated with a vehicle that needs regular maintenance over and above normal servicing and questions would be asked about how the current owner has looked after it etc etc.

All this means that until a claim is really challenged through the courts giving lawyers some guidance then manufacturers are reluctant to spend a fortune to defend a case they would probably lose. The upshot is you engine gets paid for.

Remember that if you pay one penny toward the repair you get parts warranty on the whole job (thats the law) so its a good idea to make sure that you contribute in some way.

 

[skidave4202]

my first picture..........

 

[skidave4202]

 

[Mucky Helmet]

Fixed

my first picture..........