2720 - Route with Zero Destination Points

[st13phil]

I had something unusual happen about 10 days ago but had put it down to some sort of ineptitude on my part until I picked up a post about the same problem on another forum today.

I'd created a route from home to a destination in MapSource using just one intermediate waypoint which I created by dragging the route to a particular road I wanted to use. I then used "Invert Route" to create the return trip. Finally, I downloaded the two routes (the transfer waypoints box was checked too) to my 2720. The route to the destination worked fine, but when I wanted to return home from the destination and told the 2720 to navigate the saved return route, no route appeared on the 2720. So I tried again. Zip. And again. Nada. Then I tried to edit the saved (return) route and the 2720 told me that it contained zero destination points? Wonderful Once I got home I deleted both the outbound and the return routes from the 2720, hooked it up to my PC and downloaded the two routes and waypoints from MapSource again (I'd saved the MapSource file when I created the routes initially, so it wasn't as though I'd recreated them). This time it worked fine.

I've wracked my brains as to which version of MapSource I was using as it was around the time that I upgraded from 6.11.1 to 6.11.3 and I just don't remember for certain which version I was on. I *think* I was using 6.11.3, which is a bit worrying... I know that I was definitely on v6.10 of the 2720 firmware though, because v6.20 didn't come out until after I'd made the problem trip.

This was the first and only time that I've had this problem, but as I'm off on a trip that will use multiple saved routes soon I've double-checked each of them that I've downloaded to the GPSR and all seems fine. All the same, I now don't trust the MapSource "send to device" process in the way that I used to and suggest that you too check the validity of transferred routes if they're complex and you won't have an opportunity to download them again before you need to ride them.

 

[HMR]

I then used "Invert Route" to create the return trip. Finally, I downloaded the two routes (the transfer waypoints box was checked too) to my 2720. The route to the destination worked fine, but when I wanted to return home from the destination and told the 2720 to navigate the saved return route, no route appeared on the 2720. So I tried again. Zip. And again. Nada.

I have seen this problem 3-4 times on my 276C. It's obviously a software bug.

It's only when I create two identical routes in MapSource using "duplicate" and "invert" as this problem shows up.

Assume I have two routes, "outbound" and "inbound". Same roads but in different directions.

Assume that I activate the "outbound" route and ride to my goal. If I stop half way and activate the other route, "inbound", sometimes the last few legs of "inbound" are gone from memory! This is very odd. The GPS deletes legs from one route while riding another!

The problem doesn't show everytime. An easy way to avoid it is to add a few extra roadwaypoints to one (or both) of the routes to make their internal definition slightly different.

I should have reported this bug to Garmin a long time ago but I assume they won't listen anyway.

 

[PanEuropean]

I am not familiar with this issue, however, the first workaround that comes to mind would be to call up the original route (the outbound route) on the GPSR, then select 'INVERT ROUTE' from the GPSR menu.

Has anyone tried this?

Michael

 

[st13phil]

I have seen this problem 3-4 times on my 276C. It's obviously a software bug.

It's only when I create two identical routes in MapSource using "duplicate" and "invert" as this problem shows up.

<< snip >>

The GPS deletes legs from one route while riding another!

The problem doesn't show everytime.

Glad to hear I'm not alone. I can't confirm that the return route in the GPSR was complete immediately after I downloaded it, just that it had zero destination when I tried to navigate it If it starts off as being complete but somehow gets deleted as you navigate the outbound route then that's even more worrying because a) you can't rely on verifying that all routes are present and correct before you set off, and b) It's going to be pretty difficult to replicate the problem for diagnosis purposes

I am not familiar with this issue, however, the first workaround that comes to mind would be to call up the original route (the outbound route) on the GPSR, then select 'INVERT ROUTE' from the GPSR menu.

Unfortunately, the 2720 doesn't have an 'INVERT ROUTE' option (unless I'm missing something). The only way I can see that I could invert the route on the GPSR would be use "Edit/Review Points", then use "Re-Order" to swap the start and end points, then finally "Auto Arrange" to re-sequence the intermediate points. Which all seems a bit clunky

 

[st13phil]

OK, another datapoint...

I have a master MapSource file of UK Places and Routes. In that file I just created a waypoint for the Channel Tunnel in Kent, and one for Maidstone Services (near M20 J8). A waypoint already existed in the file for my home address (this WP is not called Home, BTW). I then created a route from scratch from my home address waypoint via Maidstone Services to the Tunnel. I created a second route, again from scratch, from the Tunnel to my home address waypoint. Note that I hadn't duplicated or inverted either route to create the other one. I then saved the MapSource file.

Before downloading data to my 2720, I then deleted every other route in the file and every waypoint except for the three used by the routes to/from the Tunnel. Finally I downloaded Routes and Waypoints to my GPSR. On reviewing them I found that the route to the Tunnel was fine, with two destination points. The route from the Tunnel, although present in my list of saved routes had zero destination points and zero length

Just to see if I could repeat the problem, I deleted both the routes from my GPSR and the three waypoints concerned. Then I re-opened the MapSource file and repeated deleting the routes and waypoints I didn't want to transfer. This time I recalculated both routes (but didn't save them) before downloading Routes and Waypoints to my GPSR again. Same process, but different result: it all worked fine this time

OK, so now we have two different event sequences with two different results. So I try it again, both with and without a recalc of the two routes to be transfered after deleting all others. Bottom line is that after several cycles of deleting the routes/waypoints from the GPSR and then running the transfer from MapSource again the route to the Tunnel always transfers fine, but the route from the Tunnel sometimes transfers with zero destination points and zero length regardless of whether it was recalculated immediately before transfer or not.

Just call me "Baffled of Bicester"

 

[HMR]

Unfortunately, the 2720 doesn't have an 'INVERT ROUTE' option (unless I'm missing something).

Neither has the 276C.

 

[HMR]

It's going to be pretty difficult to replicate the problem for diagnosis purposes

Difficult but not impossible.
On my computer I have a MapSource file with the complete inbound & outbound routes that I uploaded to the 276C before my ride.
I also have a MapSource file with the routes downloaded from the 276C after the ride including the damaged inbound route and the trace from my ride.

 

[PanEuropean]

...This time I recalculated both routes (but didn't save them) before downloading Routes and Waypoints to my GPSR again. Same process, but different result: it all worked fine this time...

Hi Phil:

I have not tried to duplicate your efforts using MapSource or a GPSR, but I wonder if perhaps you have put your finger on the cause of the apparent problem with your statement above regarding 'recalculating' the routes.

In other words... what I am thinking is this: Perhaps if you don't 'recalculate' the route after you take the initial steps to create it from within MapSource, MapSource doesn't actually save it?

May I suggest you experiment a bit further, as follows, starting with a blank MapSource document (no waypoints, no nothing):

1) Create a route A to B to C.
2) Ensure the route is 'calculated' (meaning, a wiggly line that follows the road, not just two vectors 'A to B' and 'B to C'.)
3) Deselect (remove the check from the box) the 'Autoname' feature at the top of the route properties box.
4) Give the route a new name (e.g. "Route 2").
5) Invert it and recalculate it.

See how many routes you have present in MapSource once you have finished that exercise. There will be either one or two. If you only have one route, that is the cause of the problem - the original route is being over-written once it is inverted.

I fooled around with MapSource for a few minutes, and it appears to me that if you invert a route, the MapSource application doesn't create a new route, it changes the direction of the existing route. However, if I create a route A - B - C in one instance (window) of MapSource, then open a second instance of MapSource, copy the route from the original (first instance), paste it into the second instance, invert it, then copy the inverted route back into the original instance... then I wind up with two different routes, one A-B-C and the other C-B-A.

Let me know what you discover. Keep your eyes on the number of routes that exist within MapSource as you work your way through the process.

Michael

 

[st13phil]

I have not tried to duplicate your efforts using MapSource or a GPSR, but I wonder if perhaps you have put your finger on the cause of the apparent problem with your statement above regarding 'recalculating' the routes.

In other words... what I am thinking is this: Perhaps if you don't 'recalculate' the route after you take the initial steps to create it from within MapSource, MapSource doesn't actually save it?

Hi Michael, and thanks for your interest. I seem to have generated a bit of confusion regarding my comments about "recalculating the routes", so I'll clarify exactly what I did:

1. Opened a pre-existing MapSource .gdb file which has a number of waypoints defined within it, including one for my home address (let's call that WP[A])
2. I then created two more waypoints, one for an intermediate route point (the Services, WP) and one for the destination (the Tunnel, WP[C])
   [*]Now I created a new route from scratch A-B-C and recalculated that route
   [*]Then I created another new route, from scratch again, C-A and recalculated that route
   [*]Then I saved the .gdb file
   [*]Now I deleted every route in the file except for the two I'd just created and every waypoint in the file except for WP[A], WP & WP[C]. I did this so as not to transfer unwanted routes and/or waypoints to the GPSR. Note that I did not re-save the .gdb file at this point
   [*]I then transferred the two routes and three waypoints that remained in the .gdb file to my GPSR
   

The first time I did this the route A-B-C transferred fine, but the return route C-A, although present in the list of saved routes on my GPSR, had zero destination points and zero length. I then deleted the saved routes and the waypoints from my GPSR and repeated steps 1 thru 6 above, but immediately before making the transfer to the GPSR I inserted another step (6a) and recalculated the routes a second time. On this transfer both routes were fine, so I thought I'd hit upon what the problem was.

The trouble is, I then repeated the process several more times both with and without the additional recalculation step (6a) and there was no correlation between whether the C-A route transferred properly or not and whether or not I'd included or excluded step 6a.

I fooled around with MapSource for a few minutes, and it appears to me that if you invert a route, the MapSource application doesn't create a new route, it changes the direction of the existing route. However, if I create a route A - B - C in one instance (window) of MapSource, then open a second instance of MapSource, copy the route from the original (first instance), paste it into the second instance, invert it, then copy the inverted route back into the original instance... then I wind up with two different routes, one A-B-C and the other C-B-A.

Michael

You're correct about how MapSource performs in respect of "Invert Route" in that it inverts the selected route rather than creating a separate, independent, inverse copy of the source route - I'd found that out before but as you can see this is unrelated to the sequence of events that I posted up last night. Methinks that the next step will be to contact Garmin Support, especially since I'm using the latest version of all the software concerned.

 

[HMR]

The trouble is, I then repeated the process several more times both with and without the additional recalculation step (6a) and there was no correlation between whether the C-A route transferred properly or not and whether or not I'd included or excluded step 6a.

Do we have two independent bugs here?

I went one step further before I saw the bug I'm talking about. I had no problems with neither MapSource nor the upload to the GPS.

Before I started my ride on the bike I tested (as always!) to initiate both routes on the GPS. I zoomed out and visually confirmed that both routes where properly installed in the GPS.

It wasn't until I actually drove along the "outbound" route as the GPS started to delete legs from the "inbound" route.

The 276C, by the way, always deletes consumed legs from the active route. This is very irritating but not a bug. The memory copy of the active route is not changed and one can get the full route on the screen again by activating it again. The bug consists of the 276C deleting legs from other routes in memory!

Why is it very irritating that the 276C deletes consumed legs from the active route? The problem is that this makes it impossible to drive a route backwards! Assume I want to store 25 interesting routes for a vacation in Italy. Since I don't know up front in what direction I want to ride the routes this forces me to create & upload 2*25 = 50 routes! My old SP3 didn't have this problem and I could ride routes backwards using the GPS as a moving map only without turn-by-turn instructions. Nor the Quest has this problem since that GPS has a built in "invert route" function.

 

[st13phil]

Do we have two independent bugs here?

It sounds as though we do

I've just e-mailed Garmin Support with details of my issue and will pass on their reply if/when it arrives. And now I'm off for a

 

[PanEuropean]

Hi Phil:

This one's now over my head, so, I can't contribute any more knowledge.

You did a great job of very clearly documenting what the problem is, and how to reproduce the problem, so, I will bring this thread to the attention of the appropriate folks at Garmin and let them take it from here.

Michael

 

[HMR]

You did a great job of very clearly documenting what the problem is, and how to reproduce the problem, so, I will bring this thread to the attention of the appropriate folks at Garmin and let them take it from here.

Please do. I can send them MapSource files showing the bug if required.

 

[st13phil]

This one's now over my head, so, I can't contribute any more knowledge.

<< snip >>

I will bring this thread to the attention of the appropriate folks at Garmin and let them take it from here.

Michael

Thanks Michael. I hope your contact with Garmin is more successful than mine. While I don't expect an instant resolution to a problem such as this, an acknowledgment from support that they'd actually received my problem report would have been a nice touch...