690R ongoing fault - any ideas?

[g00ner]

Mate's 2009 690, owned from new, approx 8000 miles. Akrapovic pipe with correct map installed, recently fitted Rally Raid large tanks.

Bike will start and run beautifully, no problems evident. After anything from 1-2 hours use it will cut out. Will sometimes restart but soon die again, normally won't restart though. Leave the bike alone for 10-15 minutes and it will start and tick over just fine, ride it and it may cover 500 yards before cutting out again. Repeat the procedure and it will travel successively smaller distances till it won't start at all. Leave the bike alone overnight and back to square one again.

Bike has had new fuel pump, injector, coil, HT lead and two new spark plugs. A new loom was fitted two weeks ago as a second fault was discovered which didn't cure the ongoing issue.

Bike has been plugged into a dealers fault finder, no fault codes logged

This weekend soon as it broke down (after about an hours ride) there was no spark at the plug at all. Fuel injection light flashed a couple of times but nothing else. Numerous attempts to start, after 20 mins being left alone bike started again and ran for 500 yards.

Towed him home and after an hour bike started and ran as if nothing wrong.

Any suggestions as to where to look next other than don't buy a KTM?

 

[paintman]

My brother has a 690 about the same age and has had similar issues, in the end a new loom was fitted and that seems to have fixed it, after many non finishes in rally's he got another bike (500) so the 690 is not being used much, so who knows.

 

[g00ner]

It's a pain not knowing what it is - expensive too for the owner

 

[PDiddy]

Could this be the rectifier breaking down, they are a known weak point and can be unpredictable in the issues they cause. I believe that Rally Raid had a similar issue with one of their bikes. If I had the spare cash I would strip the FI out and fit the carb conversion, but then mine runs and races great.

 

[Timolgra]

So the problem started after fitting the tanks?

You may have a problem with the rear filler not breathing?

It's had a new fuel pump, which one a Cycleworks? When fitted it may have kinked the hose inside the tank. (Common) I've replumbed mine with new hose and external filter.
Was the filter changed, could be blocked?

Wire to the fuel pump under the battery may be damaged.

Check air sensor wires under air box.

Check LT wires are not loose on coil.

Injector may be blocked or does your's have the fine 10 micron filter before the injector? It too may be blocked, it's too fine.

Repeat the procedure and it will travel successively smaller distances till it won't start at all. Leave the bike alone overnight and back to square one again
That's significant because it suggests fuel starvation.

 

[IainMac]

My money is on the tanks/filler caps aren't venting properly causing fuel starvation. Easy test is run it until it cuts out and take a filler cap off. if it starts up as per normal its not getting air into the tank to replace the used fuel . Had this on an old 640 duke that I put a large new tank on, it came with a filler cap that didn't breath and was supposed to.

 

[g00ner]

Could this be the rectifier breaking down, they are a known weak point and can be unpredictable in the issues they cause. I believe that Rally Raid had a similar issue with one of their bikes. If I had the spare cash I would strip the FI out and fit the carb conversion, but then mine runs and races great.

Rectifier is on the shopping list - stator being sent to West Country windings for testing as well

So the problem started after fitting the tanks?

You may have a problem with the rear filler not breathing?

Tried to run the bike without fuel caps fitted - no change

It's had a new fuel pump, which one a Cycleworks? When fitted it may have kinked the hose inside the tank. (Common) I've replumbed mine with new hose and external filter.
Was the filter changed, could be blocked?

Replaced with new standard pump, filter changed

Wire to the fuel pump under the battery may be damaged.

Check air sensor wires under air box.

Check LT wires are not loose on coil.

Injector may be blocked or does your's have the fine 10 micron filter before the injector? It too may be blocked, it's too fine.

Will check those, gauze seemed ok too but will check again

Repeat the procedure and it will travel successively smaller distances till it won't start at all. Leave the bike alone overnight and back to square one again
That's significant because it suggests fuel starvation.

We though that till this weekend when there was no spark at the plug - wonder if any sensor fault will result in the ECU shutting down the spark but allow the engine to crank over

 

[edzt]

My money is on the tanks/filler caps aren't venting properly causing fuel starvation. Easy test is run it until it cuts out and take a filler cap off. if it starts up as per normal its not getting air into the tank to replace the used fuel . Had this on an old 640 duke that I put a large new tank on, it came with a filler cap that didn't breath and was supposed to.

My thoughts exactly, if you google 'Ktm filler cap mods' you'll find posts showing how to open up the vent.....think it's on ADvrider

 

[DrFarkoff]

I was thinking on this one Tim has some good points there but leaving overnight is that not severe for a fuel starvation problem Have you tried opening the filler caps? Any whoosh of air rushing in?

Does it turn over on the starter when it is having problems fresh and strong or tired and lackadaisical?

I had a GSX250 when I started out on bikes I could get 60 miles and then it would lie down and be a bit lazy on the starter so a bump would get you a few more miles

Turns out the low voltage was not allowing the Ignition unit to work

Maybe the Katoom one is more sensitive?

Do a search for Gammotronix on e bay the have an LED monitor for a tenner Great article and does what it says it will

 

[Magwych]

A 2009 690 with RR tanks needs the coil relocated, a plate is provided by RallyRaid for that. The instruction sheet shows that the mounting holes on the frame where the plate is mounted must be cleaned back to bright metal, to provide an earth return for the coil. Is it possible that when the tanks were fitted the area was clea now enough to allow the coil to work staight away, but some corrosion or crud has got in there, blocking the coil grounding some times? There havebeen some cases of failed ignition pick ups too...

 

[swissrob]

guess the plug cap has also been changed for a new one? mine did the same, after a new cap it was fine.

 

[g00ner]

Just double checked, issues present prior to RR tanks fitting. Earths all checked and ok, generator and rectifier confirmed as ok also. Bike won't run even if fuel caps are removed (not until it's ready anyway).

Last things to check are CDI and the sidestand switch..if it's that

 

[g00ner]

I was thinking on this one Tim has some good points there but leaving overnight is that not severe for a fuel starvation problem Have you tried opening the filler caps? Any whoosh of air rushing in?

Does it turn over on the starter when it is having problems fresh and strong or tired and lackadaisical?

I had a GSX250 when I started out on bikes I could get 60 miles and then it would lie down and be a bit lazy on the starter so a bump would get you a few more miles

Turns out the low voltage was not allowing the Ignition unit to work

Maybe the Katoom one is more sensitive?

Do a search for Gammotronix on e bay the have an LED monitor for a tenner Great article and does what it says it will

Cheers, pretty sure it's not a vacuum in the tanks now - turns over really well after all the parts were replaced, prior to that it wouldn't hence the new loom. Poor bloke's spending a fortune

A 2009 690 with RR tanks needs the coil relocated, a plate is provided by RallyRaid for that. The instruction sheet shows that the mounting holes on the frame where the plate is mounted must be cleaned back to bright metal, to provide an earth return for the coil. Is it possible that when the tanks were fitted the area was clea now enough to allow the coil to work staight away, but some corrosion or crud has got in there, blocking the coil grounding some times? There havebeen some cases of failed ignition pick ups too...

Strange you mention the pick up coil - MHSnowy had a similar issue on his Xchallenge and it was that

guess the plug cap has also been changed for a new one? mine did the same, after a new cap it was fine.

Everything replaced or checked out Rob - coil, plug, cap, battery, rectifier, stator, loom etc etc

Good job he bought it in the VAT free sale .....

 

[Timolgra]

Did the fault occur after the new pump?
If yes, he's kinked the pipe in the tank.
Is the pump priming when ignitions turned on?

 

[DrFarkoff]

Pick up coil basically the modern version of hall sensor

Gets hot and insulation breaks down Which is fine until hot again

v370

 

[g00ner]

Did the fault occur after the new pump?
If yes, he's kinked the pipe in the tank.
Is the pump priming when ignitions turned on?

Fault was there hence the new pump and injector, pump is priming

Pick up coil basically the modern version of hall sensor

Gets hot and insulation breaks down Which is fine until hot again

v370

As the chap in question just reflected to me, it runs ok on tickover when only the water is getting hot - soon as it's ridden the oil will get hot which could cause the failure of the pickup sensor possibly. Given the rest between breakdowns the oil could conceivably cool enough to allow it to run.

Worth a check at least - cheers

 

[Timolgra]

Pick up coil basically the modern version of hall sensor

Gets hot and insulation breaks down Which is fine until hot again

v370

Good thinking, given the order of checks already made

If it is that they're not expensive.
75039034000 PULSER COIL £32.34

 

[Trekker3]

So the problem started after fitting the tanks?

You may have a problem with the rear filler not breathing?

It's had a new fuel pump, which one a Cycleworks? When fitted it may have kinked the hose inside the tank. (Common) I've replumbed mine with new hose and external filter.
Was the filter changed, could be blocked?

Wire to the fuel pump under the battery may be damaged.

Check air sensor wires under air box.

Check LT wires are not loose on coil.

Injector may be blocked or does your's have the fine 10 micron filter before the injector? It too may be blocked, it's too fine.

Repeat the procedure and it will travel successively smaller distances till it won't start at all. Leave the bike alone overnight and back to square one again
That's significant because it suggests fuel starvation.

This all sounds correct to me, I had exactly the same fault with my 2008 690, I would be tempted to try another fuel pump if you replaced it with another KTM version, it's a Chinese part and not very well designed, any heat to it stops the pump working, once mine was replaced it ran faultless.

 

[Timolgra]

This all sounds correct to me, I had exactly the same fault with my 2008 690, I would be tempted to try another fuel pump if you replaced it with another KTM version, it's a Chinese part and not very well designed, any heat to it stops the pump working, once mine was replaced it ran faultless.

Thing is mate, he now tells us the pump is priming......I guess even when the the fault occurs? Because of course it'll prime when the engine will run.

 

[Trekker3]

Thing is mate, he now tells us the pump is priming......I guess even when the the fault occurs? Because of course it'll prime when the engine will run.

Thing is, I thought mine was still priming, I wonder if it has to make a certain pressure. Mine spent 3 weeks at the KTM dealer, I told them I didn't want the bike back till it was properly sorted, I researched the problem and it all pointed to the pump, they dismissed this and tried everything else and as a last resort changed it, hey fcukn presto fault gone.
Could be wrong, just my experience.