Brake problems denied by BMW

its all poo

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Story so far.
Riding bike and front brake lever gradualy looses all play so I can only grab it with the end of my middle finger with the span adjuster fully in, I check the front micro switch and it is not being triggered and the hand guard is off the lever.
I take it into BMW Dusseldorf and they do the same checks and say not seen that before and I would not ride it. I say bugger got to get tunnel today so off we go.
As we pull up just before Calais friend smiles and says I can smell burning I say yup so can I, I get off and sniff around the clutch area and nothing I stick my nose under the tank by the forks and smell burning.
We get to BMW park Lane Workshops and they say do not ride this bike get it recoverd to brum as they had not seen that problem before. Bike recovered and fault confirmed by BMW recovery.
2 days later Clarks call me and say nothing wrong with bike I can pick it up !

After many hours on the phone and emailing various BMW customer service people I have been told the following:

1.It was the hand guard NO it wasnt
2.It was a trapped breather pipe ?
3.It was the clutch burning not smelt it in 4,000 miles since ?
4.It was the front micr switch 2 BMW shops checked this !
5.It needed the front Wheel sensor resettng ? no warning lights so no
6. Oh and now they say there was nothing wrong with them at all !

BMW Customer services have said to help me more they feel that they can not anser my specific questions about the brake failure. They refuse to speak to Park Lane or Dusseldorf.

They have offered to send their technical chap out to sooth my fears !

Has anyone had similar probs.
 
So lets get this straight?

You pull into a BMW dealership they look at your bike and say don't ride it????

You need to go through the Chunnel? So you ignore them and ride it X hundred Km

Then you can smell Burning and get recovered??

I'd be grateful that BM or someone timewarped yer bike and ya got it back fixed!

Maybe next time a technician says don't ride it you'll listen!

What would have happened if you'd ended up under a truck or car because the brakes or canbus shutdown and left you with no lights or whatever

Basically If a Spanner Jockey says you shouldn't ride it!!!!!!!! Then that Means it's probably not safe to ride it!


Just be thankful and try listening next time!
 
Blah Blah Blah my eyelids are getting tiered ! that realy helps and makes me so happy that I posted you are realy special and sooo clever !
 
no useful at all

Yeah not a helpful reply at all. Why say anything if that all you have to say! :eek:

As they now say theres nothing wrong has it been ok since? :augie
 
Blah Blah Blah my eyelids are getting tiered ! that realy helps and makes me so happy that I posted you are realy special and sooo clever !

Yeah not a helpful reply at all. Why say anything if that all you have to say! :eek:

As they now say theres nothing wrong has it been ok since? :augie
Hey Guys I was going to write a Steptoe type reply (I notice he has chosen not to reply! Obviously nothing Helpful he can add!) But I'm "Me" not him and I won't get away with it so consider this my last offering in this thread :D:D:D:D

So basically This is Such an "unusual a situation" and apparently so far a "One Off" so in reality:- How could one offer a Helpful reply?

My Gripe with this is that I'm a Technician and If I said to say to someone look thats dangerous or I wouldn't ride that because it's a problem I've never seen, and the bloke or blokess rode off it's like calling me a liar or that I'm telling you not to ride it just to "spoil your fun"

So in Summary apologies for any possible offence but in reality my feeling is you were foolish to ride it When advised not to?

On an Old ABS II equipped bike you can get away with a lot! In fact I have adapted my ABS system power feed thru the load shedding relay so I never have the battery low warning lamps and I recently fitted an ABS off switch (which I can flick anytime even on the move) because of a Hairy moment in a lane on gravel where I could get stopped due to mud below the gravel and me still travelling over 15km/h

An old ABS II system the pressure you apply at the bar or the pedal is related to the pressure at the calliper, The fluid at the handlebar / rear reservoir is the same fluid at the callipers, you have direct proportional control "except" if the wheels decelerate faster than the ECU allows then the sytems will kick in

The 1150 Servo ABS and the later 1200 ABS brake Generations remove rider control by being between the rider and the brake calliper.
On the Servo ABS the ECU does calculations and powers up accordingly every time you use the brakes, and there are control fluid circuits and Wheel fluid circuits so the fluid at the bar or reservoir is not the same as the fluid in the callipers (same Dot4 fluid but not connected).

It's all too complicated and a failure in one system on the 1200's "could" shut you down at the wrong moment, Fuel Pump, EWS, etc etc

So Good Luck to you and Safe Riding and I hope it doesn't happen to you again!

:aidan:aidan:aidan
 
oh my

Thanks for that again very help full and you are realy very very clever !

I just thought I would take this opportunity to warn you if you drink tea when it is too hot you might be scalded, however I presume as an adult you can make your own decisions as to weather its safe or not to drink ?

Since they only ran a standard check on the brakes and found nothing wrong they have been fine since?
 
I'm not sure what you meant by "lost all play" exactly but it sounds like your front caliper(s) have seized and then unblocked themselves. This did this on my 650 Dakar - the heat was so bad it melted the wheel speed sensor.

You should have felt it dragging though when you smelt the burning, though it doesn't need much drag over substantial distance to get very, very hot!
 
My 04 1200gs had endless problems with brake issues, the culmination of this was the front wheel locking going onto a roundabout, it locked just when the micro switch was operated, with no pressure on the brake circuit itself. Not pleasant but it was all over and done with in a second then the brakes resorted to residual status.

Shep
 
mmmh that sound interesting I did not feel any drag but as you said it does not need alot.

If you feel the front brake lever when the systems up and working there is some free play in the lever until the brakes engage. Well on mine the lever only had to be pulled a mm and the brakes came on quite hard, I adjusted the span adjuster so I had minimum span but this did nothing.
And there was no brake servo singing until the brake was pulled.
 
On mine it appeared that the two brake circuits had managed to combine via a failed seal in the ABS control unit under the tank, as soon as the servo motors started it powered the brake circuit.

All the time i had issues SPC read the GT1 each time and the computer reported that the fault was resolved not current:nenau

Shep
 
The diagnostics are going to pickup ABS faults at the garage and since there were none it can only really be the callipers can't it :nenau. You aren't going to hear any servo whining if they are dragging remember.

Stick it on the centre stand with some weight on the back and rotate to start with. Put the elecs on, spin it and pull hard on the lever, then spin again and see if its dragging any.
 
Sounds like the sort of problem you get when the calipers are a bit corroded on the inside. We had this kind of issue on Mrs Badger's old SV650 which had an underslung rear caliper. Have the spanner guys had the pistons out? It's the only way to really know.
 
The take up of slack in the lever might suggest a back pressure into the master cylinder. (only an educted guess).
Could this be expansion or boiling of the fluid when the brakes get too hot? Leaving too much fluid for the space available? If so, the problem would indeed resolve itself when the system cooled down, and might not be found by later inspection. (my two penny worth):)
 
Clarks replaced nothing as they said there was no fault with the brakes, I have just been out and checked the front calipers and they seem to be fine now no binding and they release fine. The bike had only done 11,000 miles at that point and 4,000 miles since then and has been fine since.

pablo666 I agree it could have been back pressure but what was causing it I now recal checking the discs to see if they were hot and that was where the burning smell came from they were not.
 
Dear Mr Sharmen

Thank you for your reply it was very revealing, I note from your email that you are the most Senior Manager within BMW UK. Does that mean you report to nobody?. You are also then the most senior person in BMW UK? Could you please supply your managers name and email.

regards

DH



Dear Mr DH

I am in receipt of your further email and have noted its content.

Your correspondence has been addressed by Jane and myself who are the most Senior Managers within BMW UK, and we have nothing further to comment in this matter.

Any further communication will be kept on record, but will not be responded to.

Yours sincerely


Nick Sharman

Dear Mr DH

Jane Noble is currently away from the business on annual leave and therefore your email was forwarded to me for response.

Firstly, please accept my apologies for the delay in responding to you.

I have referred to the correspondence from Myra Gray, and most recently from Jane Noble and have the following details:

I can understand your predicament with you being out of the country and I would assume that you are currently using your BMW, which may be the reason why your motorcycle could not be inspected before September 12, 2008.

However, I am pleased to confirm that you are able to take out a Lapsed Insured Warranty, which does not require your BMW being inspected and the renewal period may be more flexible for you. For further details, please contact Tracy Reeve on the following email address. tracy_reeve@mondial-assistance.co.uk.

I would also agree with Janes proposal that it would be best for you to meet our Motorcycle Field Manager, so that he can go through any technical questions or concerns that you may have with your motorcycle and your local BMW dealer, Clarks would be happy to arrange a future date, if you contact them directly.

I would like to thank you for bringing this to our attention and I am sorrry it was under these circumstances.

Yours sincerly


Nick Sharman
Corporate & Emergency Service Manager






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DH
Sent: 07 September 2008 18:29
To: Sharman Nicholas, V1-UK-A-2
Subject: Fw: Re AJ06DVU


Dear Jane



I find your last response totally unacceptable.



You were quite happy to answer my questions until it seems I made the questions specific to the facts. Your decision not to answer these questions now proves to me that you intended to mislead me all along as now the facts are being clarified you refuse to answer what are quite simple questions.



The quite ludicrous suggestion that if I do not have my motorcycle inspected before the 12th September I will loose the right to extend my warranty. You state this knowing fully that I am out of the country on business and will not be in the UK at that time. May I also remind you that you have admitted the warranty extension was not offered in time due to mistakes made by BMW.



Please could you supply me with your line manager as I feel I need to again take this further.



Regards



DH



From: Jane.Noble@bmw.co.uk
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:33 AM
To: DH
Subject: RE: Re AJ06DVU


Dear Mr DH

Thank you for your further email and I note all of your additional comments and questions which relate to the way in which your concerns have been handled both by our appointed dealer and by Customer Service.

Whilst appreciating that you have posed some very specific questions, I honestly believe that it would be far more constructive and beneficial all round if we endeavoured to progress a resolution rather than examine detail which at this stage, will add little or no value to ensuring that ultimately, you have faith and confidence in your bike.

One area I should clarify is that we did not receive any official notification from you that a transfer of ownership had taken place. Our records were amended on our customer database when you contacted Customer Service to register your concerns. Our customer database therefore shows you as being the registered keeper of above bike. However, this data did not transfer to our database that generates warranty renewals - and this is where the error has occurred for which we apologise.

A new legislation has resulted in warranty insured products being managed independently and as such, we had to seek agreement that we could apply a warranty to your bike even though the existing warranty has expired. Whilst there is agreement to do this, as the policy actually expired during May 08, it is imperative that the warranty is applied as a matter of urgency. Having spoken to our Warranty Insured Department, they have agreed an extension up until the 12 September for this to be applied. To confirm, we have agreed to cover the cost of this check. Whilst I appreciate that you are working abroad, if the policy cannot be applied before or on that date, then this option will no longer be open to you.

Noting your comments regarding the comments made by Park Lane, the fact remains that Clarks are an authorised BMW Motorrad repairer and are qualified to assess and resolve all product related defects. Given that your complaint was about a fundamental safety feature, it is inconceivable that they would not have been thorough with their investigations. Nevertheless, as I recognise that you must have absolute faith and confidence in the integrity of your bike, I am offering for our Motorcycle Field Service Manager to appraise your bike personally. Assuming that this is an offer you will accept, kindly contact Clarks who will co-ordinate the inspection.

I believe that this response provides a sensible solution and I trust that you will be able to arrange for your bike to be checked prior to the 12 September.

Yours sincerely

Jane Noble

BMW Group UK
Jane Noble
National Customer Service Manager
Ellesfield Avenue
Bracknell RG12 8TA
Tel: +44 (0)1344 426565
Fax: +44 (0)1344 480545
Mail to: [email]Jane.Noble@bmw.co.uk

URL: http:www.bmw.co.uk









--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DH
Sent: 27 August 2008 15:12
To: Noble Jane, V1-UK-A-3
Cc: Gray Myra, V1-UK-A-3
Subject: Re: Re AJ06DVU


Dear Jane



Thank you for your detailed reply, may I use this opportunity to bring to your attention a number of inaccuracies in what you have been told. I have used numbered paragraphs as I hope this will enable us to resolve specific issues easily and honestly.



1. When I attempted to resolve the issue of my brake failure with Myra Gray I once more contacted Park Lane. I spoke to the gentleman who observed my brake failure and who told me not to ride the bike and to have it recovered. I asked him if he would explain what he had seen to Myra Gray if she contacted him, he confirmed that he would be very happy to do this. I then supplied his name and telephone number to Myra Gray, however she choose not to contact him. Could you explain to me why this was not done ?



2. Before I had the bike recovered to Clarks I called and asked the Service Manager Chris if this was OK and during this conversation I informed him at length and in great detail the problems I had been having.

When I picked the bike up after a few days I spoke to the technician who informed me that he had not been told any thing of the symptoms or problems I had had he had just received a job card stating brake fault. So therefore he carried out the standard check on the brakes and found no faults.



3. I was told by Myra that the reason why my brakes had failed was that the front wheel sensor needed to be reset. I attempted to obtain a explanation of this from her. (I had no warning lights and the sensors would not have caused the fault that I had.) She told me that it would and to contact Clarks for an explanation. On contacting Clarks it was confirmed to me that this was not the cause of the fault. So who is telling the truth ?



4. I am aware of the hand guard fowling the front brake lever and this was one of the first things I checked it was not and had not been. Once started the fault got progressively worse over time. It was first noticed as I started my return journey to the UK from the Balkans. So it lasted for over 4 days and 1500 miles.



5. With reference to the latest email from Mira Gray. (attached below) She contradicts your email by saying that the records were certainly updated after you stated they were not could you please clarify this as to which is the truth?

Most fascinating of all she blames an anomaly within your system !? I look forward to your explanation or description of this said anomaly. Does this mean that I was not offered an apology because the fault lies with an anomaly ? .



I understand that you are very busy and must receive thousands of calls a day so can I remind you that as stated before I am working abroad for a number of weeks so therefore the suggestion I take my bike to be checked within the next 2 weeks is impossible.





Yours sincerely



DH











Dear MrDH



Our records have certainly been updated, but having checked why you did not receive an invitation to purchase an Insured Warranty Policy, we have found an anomaly within our systems, which is why the information was not received our Warranty Department. In view of this I will certainly cover the cost of an Approved Used Bike check. Can I ask that the arrangements to have the AUB carried out are made within the next two weeks and please retain this email as the necessary authority. Once this has been undertaken you will then be at liberty to contact our Warranty Department on 08712000199 to purchase the warranty.



Yours sincerely





Myra Gray











From: Jane.Noble@bmw.co.uk
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 1:30 PM
To: DH
Subject: RE: Re AJ06DVU


Dear Mr Harris,

I have now researched your concerns with our Motorcycle Field Service Manager who in turn has been involved with both Park Lane and Clarks in the hope of establishing information to assist us in progressing this issue. Firstly however, please accept my sincere apologies for the concern this matter has caused over recent weeks.

I acknowledge that you have reported that the fuel gauge is providing an inaccurate reading. Motorrad have now released a software upgrade to our dealers which we believe will address this issue for any motorcycles are affected. Can I suggest that as you are currently away, kindly contact Clarks at your convenience who will attend to this. I also confirm that you will not be charged for this work.

With regard to your concerns with the operation of the brakes, our Technical Manager discussed this with both dealers. Unfortunately Park Lane have not recorded any details relating to a visit and therefore we cannot comment here. However, Clarks have fully documented the nature of their tests which are extensive which confirmed that no fault could be found. I understand that Clarks even went to the lengths of removing the fuel tank to smell the wiring harness to establish whether a burning smell was evident - which there was not.

To address other points raised in your letter, Myra Gray is a Customer Service Manager and has the responsibility and empowerment to deal with any Customer Service related issues appropriately. Our board of Directors will automatically forward any correspondence to my team to deal with. It is regrettable that at the point of you communicating directly with Myra Gray, the software update had not been released which we believe will resolve the issue with the fuel gauge. However, the position remains the same in that we cannot actually fault the operation of the brake system and Mrs Gray was unable to take any further action in this respect.

Our Field Service Manager did comment that there is sometimes a possibility that the hand guard, that goes around the front brake lever may have been knocked, causing the guard to touch the brake lever. If this was the case, the free play in the lever may have been removed, causing a very slight application of the brake whilst riding the bike. However, this would be checked by the dealer and reported. There would have been no burning smell from under the fuel tank if this was the case. The brake pads, however, would have got very hot dependant upon how far the rider travelled before noticing an issue. When you visit Clarks, I will ensure that they demonstrate this to you.

I have also spoken with our warranty renewals team who confirmed that an invitation letter was sent to the registered keeper of the above motorcycle. It appears however, that when you purchased your bike, we were not made aware of the change of ownership, and hence we contacted the previous owner (who did not respond to the letter). I am therefore endeavouring to establish whether as goodwill, it will be possible to implement a warranty should you wish to purchase this. I will of course let you know as soon as I hear from our warranty team.

In closing, I trust that you will contact Clarks at a convenient time so that your concerns can be progressed. I am also sorry that it has been necessary for you to contact me direct on this occasion.

Yours sincerely

Jane Noble

BMW Group UK
Jane Noble
National Customer Service Manager
Ellesfield Avenue
Bracknell RG12 8TA
Tel: +44 (0)1344 426565
Fax: +44 (0)1344 480545
Mail to: Jane.Noble@bmw.co.uk
URL: http:www.bmw.co.uk








--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DH
Sent: 19 August 2008 18:06
To: Noble Jane, V1-UK-A-3
Subject: RE: Re AJ06DVU



Hi Jane


Thank you very much for your reply, I look forward to your thoughts on the situation. I am presently working and travelling abroad so I am unable to recieve any post. If you could continue to correspond by email this would enable me to reply far sooner and easily.

Yours sincerely

DH


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re AJ06DVU
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:51:35 +0100
From: Jane.Noble@bmw.co.uk
To: DH


Dear DH
I am in receipt of your email and will be investigating your concerns so that I may respond fully to you on my return to the office next week.
In the meantime, please accept my apologies for the continued concern this situation continues to cause you.
Yours sincerely
Jane Noble


BMW Group UK
Jane Noble
National Customer Service Manager
Ellesfield Avenue
Bracknell RG12 8TA
Tel: +44 (0)1344 426565
Fax: +44 (0)1344 480545
Mail to: Jane.Noble@bmw.co.uk
URL: http:www.bmw.co.uk
 
nice responses from bmw i must say, however the email time line is a bit confusing at the top......

As you say once specifics are asked they dont want to answer- no surprise there.

i would contact the bike mags, im sure they would be interested following the last weeks admission by bmw over quality control
 


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