charging system

[kirky1298]

Im looking for some advice regarding the charging system on an 1150 .
does anyone know if it would be possible to draw 15 amps continuous through the charging system or would i have to go for a high output alternator or bigger ah battery ??
Ideally i would like 30 amps continuous from the bike , but 15 would do for now .
anyone know what the maximum draw from the charging system would be ??
sorry for my ignorance , but electrickery is white mans magic as far as i'm concerned .

thanks in advance

 

[ahutcheon]

The alternator is good for 40 to 50 amps at full output (roughly, running at around 14v, depending on whether you have the standard 600w alternator or the 700w one that came with servo abs and/or heated grips). I imagine you only get that at 4000 rpm or so and up, won't be full output at tickover.

The bike needs some power (probably 10 - 15 amps if you're running with the lights on, maybe more). Then there's heated grips, servo ABS (if you have it), recharging the battery after starting... And the fact that a bigger alternator was fitted to bikes with more electrical options suggests the charging system isn't way over-specified.

The accessory socket is rated for 5 amps; a pair of 60w spots is 10 amps. My guess is that you'll get away with 15 amps (assuming everything else is fairly standard), it's plausible enough that I'd give it a try and see whether the battery held up ok. For 30 amps I'd look at a bigger alternator, and perhaps battery to see you through any extended period of idling or whatever.

Above is based on basic understanding of electrickery, maybe somebody else can assure us that 400w of aux lights is no problem in practice and prove me wrong.

 

[warmshed]

What he says seems right. Make sure your wiring is heavy enough to supply the load too,

What do you need 30 amps for???? 360-420 watts? maybe a lighthouse?

 

[kirky1298]

What he says seems right. Make sure your wiring is heavy enough to supply the load too,

What do you need 30 amps for???? 360-420 watts? maybe a lighthouse?

Well , something similar , I've built a Mini hydrogen fuel cell which , If my calculations are correct will need 15 amps for optimum performance . If possible I was going to build another 1 and have them feeding each cylinder independantly .

Had a wee bit of a kaboom moment last night in the kitchen and now the wife wont talk to me who would have thought that water could be so explosive

 

[Greg Masters]

Well , something similar , I've built a Mini hydrogen fuel cell which , If my calculations are correct will need 15 amps for optimum performance . If possible I was going to build another 1 and have them feeding each cylinder independantly .

Had a wee bit of a kaboom moment last night in the kitchen and now the wife wont talk to me who would have thought that water could be so explosive

Are you being serious?



Assuming that you intend to run your bike only on hydrogen, you'd be trying to build a perpetual motion machine.

 

[Black Rooster]

What he says seems right. Make sure your wiring is heavy enough to supply the load too,

What do you need 30 amps for???? 360-420 watts? maybe a lighthouse?

mabey he wants to fit a leccy cooker with oven and 4 rings

 

[slimbo]

the hydrogen fuel cell is a working thing the art is being able to adjust the fuelling so you can run the bike on a leaner petrol mix...

its simply the reverse operation of a battery but feeding the gas off to suppliment the normal fuel..

an airhead would be a good project to fit as with carbs you can play with the mixtures.

 

[Greg Masters]

the hydrogen fuel cell is a working thing the art is being able to adjust the fuelling so you can run the bike on a leaner petrol mix...

its simply the reverse operation of a battery but feeding the gas off to suppliment the normal fuel..

an airhead would be a good project to fit as with carbs you can play with the mixtures.

But it doesn't work if you are electrolysing water to generate the hydrogen!



You start with water. You end up with water (steam) in the exhaust.

But in between, you generate electricity (alternator); you use that electricity to electrolyse the water to generate hydrogen; you burn the hydrogen to release the same energy that you put in when you electrolysed the water.

Net gain = nothing.

QED

Greg

PS I assume that we are referring to a hydrogen generator, not a hydrogen fuel cell (which is a device to generate electricity)

 

[kirky1298]

Are you being serious?



Assuming that you intend to run your bike only on hydrogen, you'd be trying to build a perpetual motion machine.

A common misconception amongst naysayers is that you cant create energy without using energy , something which I agree with , however the idea is not to run the bike on pure Hydrogen , even a retard like me understands that concept .

My Intention is to use this dry cell HH0 generator to produce Hydrogen and oxygen and deliver them into the engine cylinders with the sole intention of increasing the flame speed of the petrol ( 330fps standard ) Hydrogen is 10,000fps .
When the flame speed of the fuel mixture is increased, more of the fuel is burned during the power stroke. Less fuel is being burned after the power stroke, which is the the exhaust stroke, and which actually works against the turning of the engine. Further, less unburned fuel is being expelled from the engine as waste and pollutants. A relatively small amount of HHO will have a dramatic impact on the amount of power a given amount of petrol will produce. It will also cut out a large percentage of the amount of harmful emissions the engine produces.

Knowing my luck it probably wont bloody work though

 

[Greg Masters]

Awith the sole intention of increasing the flame speed of the petrol ( 330fps standard ) Hydrogen is 10,000fps .

Interesting.

Going back to your original question, 15 amps is a reasonable slug of juice (equaly to about 3 extra headlights). Your alternator should cope with this whilst the engine is running at a reasonable pace. You would need to be careful when the engine is on tickover as you would be calling on the battery to juice up your hydrogen generator. Even a minute or two would be significant.

The your alternator must not only supply the general running of the bike, but also your H generator AND replenish the battery.

If your charging system and battery is all in good order, this should be OK but weaknesses might soon be found out.

When the bike is on tickover, can the H generator be turned off?

Greg

 

[kirky1298]

Yes Greg , I plan to power it through a switch and relay which means I could cold start the generator on the move and stop it at tickover .

You are probably right btw , I'll most likely be pissing into the wind

 

[Greg Masters]

Yes Greg , I plan to power it through a switch and relay which means I could cold start the generator on the move and stop it at tickover .

You could probably find a relay that would automatically switch your generator off when the charging voltage dropped and then turn it back on when the voltage came up again.

 

[ahutcheon]

Intriguing. The HHO that's added is by definition (and production process) stoichiometric (assuming properly mixed). Presumably when the fuel injection is running closed-loop the lambda feedback will mean the right amount of petrol is added. When running open loop (warming up, WOT, not sure when else) it'll add fuel assuming the HHO is actually air, so you'll run a bit richer (but I'm guessing the proportion of HHO is low, and rich probably isn't a bad thing at least when accelerating hard).

Maybe you just need to plumb it in, check the electrics aren't melting, and hope you don't blow up.

I'll be keeping an eye out to find out if it works!

 

[waterloo700]

Forgive my ignorance but I thought a hydrogen fuel cell takes fuel (hydrogen) and converts it into electricity. What you describe is an electrolysis cell which uses electricity to break water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen - a very different thing indeed.

You propose to feed a (very) explosive mixture of hydrogen and oxygen into a combustion chamber sitting between your legs? Good luck with that.

Can we buy tickets to watch?

 

[Kritou]

... stoichiometric .......

Thank heavens for the iPad "define" feature!

 

[kirky1298]

bench test of the prototype

well folks , i've designed and built a prototype fuel cell which appears to work .
it's a bit bulky for the GS, but I have a plan to fit 2 smaller cylindrical cells to the bike .
I'm gonna fit the prototype to my car first ( an astra 1.7cdti )
I'm just running the cell in right now but it seems to produce hydrogen & oxygen gas that I can confirm is extremely explosive .
I'm getting about 1 litre per minute at 8 amps but when I increase to 30 amps I expect to see 3 lpm .

have a look at my video and see what you think , but please don't burst my bubble with the 1st and second laws of energy please , just humour me .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV-_vGzxq-M&feature=share&list=UUZE1J0Yjk6t7nDu5U7I3U7w

 

[kirky1298]

Forgive my ignorance but I thought a hydrogen fuel cell takes fuel (hydrogen) and converts it into electricity. What you describe is an electrolysis cell which uses electricity to break water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen - a very different thing indeed.

You propose to feed a (very) explosive mixture of hydrogen and oxygen into a combustion chamber sitting between your legs? Good luck with that.

Can we buy tickets to watch?

you are entierly correct waterloo and i appologise for the confusion . i have produced a 13 plate twin dry cell hydrogen generator that converts electricity into hh0 gas ( hydrogen hydrogen oxygen )

 

[Bendy toy]

Petrol burns plenty fast enough for a 1170cc twin cylinder engine. In fact posh petrol burns slower than cheap petrol which is why it can be sparked significantly before top dead centre and thereby lose less heat down the exhaust.

If petrol burned any faster there would be pre-ignition (pinking/knock) causing cylinder damage. Hydrogen and oxygen not only burn fast, they explode. If they catch light in the inlet port (quite likely) the bang will blow off the throttle body.

Hydrogen and oxygen = BIG BANG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN6B9SSMO50

Hydrogen only = rapid burn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLuOM9aOWvk

Hydrogen "might" make the petrol burn more efficiently but the system losses will more than make up for any benefit. Dont forget that all hydrocarbon fuels contain hydrogen.

A far more effective fuel system would be to inject LPG as a fluid (not a gas as normally done). This has a much higher octane than petrol so can run a compression ratio close to that of a diesel = more efficient.