cornering

[James Bryan]

Fixed it for you..........

.
Lack of Countersteering and entering corners too fast/wrong gear are THE primary reasons why bikers crash on corners. It is usually VERY serious and if you run wide over the white line on leftys you need to ask yourself some serious Q's before a truck meets you one day. You fck up, run wide, panic and steer rather than countersteer, bike sits up and heart exits though mouth. Now the funny thing is you can fck up, start running wide and rescue WITH countersteer.

I could not understand why I wasn't supposed to teach countersteering when it is so fundamental especially on bigger and/or sportier bikes. How can instructors/trainers not actually teach you to have such understanding when they can be following and see you getting out of shape.



You should be able to imagine a £5 note mid corner on a good line and trust youself to be able to hit it every time and if it turns out to be a house brick you should be able to avoid it.

I've raised your question re the teaching of counter, or positive steering with some CBT trainers and have received similar responses from two differing schools - "we don't have the time/ it would cost too much/ we are just getting them through the test" - perhaps linked to the recent furore re the "swerve" or avoidance manoeuvre in the practical test?

As for letting folk out onto the road bereft of an understanding of how to steer a bike, let alone the necessary muscle memory needed to save the situation when all goes pear shaped................ it makes the blood run cold.

And, as regards your £5 note example - perhaps that's why I've never seen even a penny left on any road in Yorkshire!

All the best, Jim.

 

[Rasher]

Shit hot video and not a hi viz or patronising pitch in sight!

Lots of other great bits in the twist 2 DVD like this, it covers both books and the stuff done on the track courses (for those familiar with the Superbike School teachings)

But now many of these concepts are proved on film, there are some great shots of suspension movements overlaid with datalogging clearly showing effects of opening and closing throttle on ground clearance, and how suspension works better with good throttle control.

At first watch I thought they missed out some stuff, but it is just packed into 90 minutes, you need to watch a bit then go try it, or just watch the DVD several times, first time you can get carried away with the "storyline" and humour, but by about the third pass it was sinking in - and reminding me of all the bad habbits I have picked up again.

Well worth £20 to get you through a few winter Sunday afternoons.

 

[STUBBS]

You should be able to imagine a £5 note mid corner on a good line and trust youself to be able to hit it every time and if it turns out to be a house brick you should be able to avoid it.

thats where you normaly find the manhole cover and the overbanding

 

[Wrigsby1]

I've raised your question re the teaching of counter, or positive steering with some CBT trainers and have received similar responses from two differing schools - "we don't have the time/ it would cost too much/ we are just getting them through the test" - perhaps linked to the recent furore re the "swerve" or avoidance manoeuvre in the practical test?

As for letting folk out onto the road bereft of an understanding of how to steer a bike, let alone the necessary muscle memory needed to save the situation when all goes pear shaped................ it makes the blood run cold.

And, as regards your £5 note example - perhaps that's why I've never seen even a penny left on any road in Yorkshire!

All the best, Jim.

I taught full time for 7 years and i managed it! Sadly some "teachers" don't know what they are doing so obviously can't instruct anyone else with any conviction. You just have to have a conscience about how people will fare after they have left you.

Kieth Code gave many things a new angle and helped practical understanding. Sadly the UK has a system where everything is based on the Police/DSA/Gov downwards. You can still see a few Traffic bikes with handy front end damage come up at M/works or wherever.

It's a bit late to learn when you are on the road and in the shit and didn't get told!

I learnt the most as a courier and worked a few things out for myself

 

[casperfelix]

I think this is more to do with which hand operates the throttle than anything else.
Hitting a left hander with a relaxed left hand pushing the grip down and forward is easy peasey. Hit a right hander and the grip is not so relaxed as you're operating the throttle.
Left handers are the easiest. Simple!

 

[Wrigsby1]

thats where you normaly find the manhole cover and the overbanding

Hi Stubbs... Thats why i said a good line IAM/Advanced riders can often be seen holding the outside line on lefts even when faced with an artic coming the other way Must be what the book says

We used to do a great deal about overbanding and manholes. As a courier I learnt to either casually avoid (countersteer inside or relax wide) or ride over and stay relaxed and stay onboard. Even in the wet it's the white knuckle, teeth enamel wearing grip on the bars that fcks people up in a tight spot. Thats why off road riders make very good road riders. They stay chilled when things are moving about.

It's wet, your on a nice urban roundabout/one way system/tight bend. Why do you avoid a wide/ish line (apart from getting stuffed up the inside by a Pizza boy). The diesel is usually on the outside of the lane... Luurvly in the dark

All common sense...

 

[Giles]

I think this is more to do with which hand operates the throttle than anything else.
Hitting a left hander with a relaxed left hand pushing the grip down and forward is easy peasey. Hit a right hander and the grip is not so relaxed as you're operating the throttle.
Left handers are the easiest. Simple!

(Casper this isn't aimed at you ... its just a point you raised ... )


Some of the good road riders I have the pleasure of riding with have one thing in particular in common; flexibility. Others I ride with have it all, but are sometimes just that little bit stilted and conditioned in their riding. 'The book says this, so this is what I do...'. A simple and very basic example would be a rider who positions himself beautifully for left and right handers in the wet, but the better flexible thinking rider, who chooses the simpler, seemingly less cleverer dry line through the middle of the road on the same series of bends. Obvious huh? You'd be surprised how many 'trained' riders just can't take it to the third level.

Counter steering and generally moving a bike about has no rules. Who says you have to push a bike into a corner? Go for a quick ride, stick it in 4th and leave your left hand in your lap!! (usual disclaimers apply ), push it, pull it, weight this peg, that peg, and ride like that for miles. The stuck gear will be good for your planning and you may learn a thing or two about your bikes handling and how you can pull it about too.

One of my bug bears is a rigid tight torso. Tight straight arms and a broom stick down yer spine Confident cornering will benefit from a very lose flexible torso. And one of the greatest benefits of this will be loose 'I feel like chicken tonight' arms. Your upper body must weigh what 40 kilos or so?(Probably more judging by the average tosser on here ), Thats two 20k plates from the gym!!!! (Any body with me on that one?!!), Think of the huge amount of moveable ballast that is.

I am constantly badgering my riding colleagues to weight the front end of their bike. I'm not talking hanging off, (I sit still in the saddle on the road) but a lot of uper body movement. Imagine a knight on a chess board - two steps forward and one to the side.. thats the sort of body positioning we could think about entering a corner. Thats 40 odd kilos yer shifting about - hugely influential to a bikes steering, but all with the lightest, lightest touches on your handle bar. Aside from re-distributing your weight, moving your torso forward has the huge advantage of freeing up your arms to flex, and this in turn will take weight off your bars and allow your steering to be free.

Take a look at Dani Pedrosa . Now lets stick his arse back in the saddle but leave the rest of him pretty much the same, (Interestingly by the way, watch how conservative Lorenzo is in his seat - half a buttock! Compare that with say, Tony Elias.. !!), look how free Pedrosa's arms are to push and pull his steering. In order to get on the gas as early as they can out of a corner, all the top race riders will pick up their bike whilst still hanging off, and on a right hander like this, they'll pick it up by pulling hard on their left bar, keeping their throttle hand relaxed and free.

Is this all a bit over the top? Is this talk too lairy and extreme? Is there a place for this on the road? Yes!!!!! Remember 10 / 20 years ago counter steering was a dirty word. Whilst it is a public road and there is no place for lairy hanging off and getting yer knee down, an understanding of these soughts of techniques, how you can use body weight, and how it influences cornering shouldn't, in my mind, be dismissed.
Express yourself!!! Ride, (sensibly!!!) with character and style!!!

 

[Rasher]

Wot he said

 

[Packer]

and on a right hander like this, they'll pick it up by pulling hard on their left bar, keeping their throttle hand relaxed and free.

.......

Erm, Giles, I think you meant "pick it up by pushing hard on his left bar". If he pulled on his left bar in a right hander he'd be having a little rest on the tarmac.

 

[Rasher]

Wot the first chap said + the second chaps correction

 

[Wrigsby1]

The relaxed bit is so important. I always told students to learn to be relaxed mentally and physically. Like mentioned relaxed body means less percieved input as you are not resisting with the rest of your body... hence why some people can't "feel" countersteering.

Keep your head calm and you make good decisions and don't panic.

Unless you are riding a sports bike the actions of a racer as pictured may not be directly relevant. Moving around on GS's and tourers is not a particularly natural action but on an R1 it may feel totally natural.

Racers hang off not only to change the balance and weighting of their bikes but also so that they can go round corners at the same speed or quicker with less lean angle. Also they are going f'ing quick at the same time! Funnily "Revvin Kevin" went round seriously quick bends hanging off and often sat up 'crosser style on the slower ones.

They are also "over the front" naturally due to the design of the bikes (biiiig power and light weight)

Usually for road riders righties are easier as they can see further and they are not heading for oncoming traffic to get a decent line. Also we go round roundabouts on a long right hander and we REALLY like roundabouts

 

[Ogmios]

The relaxed bit is so important. I always told students to learn to be relaxed mentally and physically. Like mentioned relaxed body means less percieved input as you are not resisting with the rest of your body... hence why some people can't "feel" countersteering.

Keep your head calm and you make good decisions and don't panic. ...

Jeez!
This thread - still ongoing - we do waffle on, dont we?
Dont forget to breath i something i tell Trainees. At EVERY level.
I do it myself - we all do at some point ;
You feel the shoulders rise and the arms tense and (the giveaway) straighten out.
It's like putting a steering damper on the Bike and isolates you from the feedback the Bike is trying to give you.

Good thread this - blunt, Real World talk.
True though - talk is easy to come by - Riding the thing! That's the proof of any Training - formal or not.

 

[Giles]

Wot the first chap said + the second chaps correction

Ha ha, sorry blokes!!! I think it's cos I was looking at the picture face on and got it arse about face !!! Well spotted!! (left handers big pull to stand it up!!! ).

 

[Wrigsby1]

Jeez!
This thread - still ongoing - we do waffle on, dont we?
Dont forget to breath i something i tell Trainees. At EVERY level.
I do it myself - we all do at some point ;
You feel the shoulders rise and the arms tense and (the giveaway) straighten out.
It's like putting a steering damper on the Bike and isolates you from the feedback the Bike is trying to give you.

Good thread this - blunt, Real World talk.
True though - talk is easy to come by - Riding the thing! That's the proof of any Training - formal or not.

Exactly chilled courier trick was being able to emergency brake, take avoiding action and still give the finger to the t++t who was trying (sometimes intentionally) to get you. Bet that isn't part of the new avoidance/swerve test

Seriously though alot of people do talk crap and don't have an f'ing clue. Some even end up being Traffic, Advanced or even examiners

Follow someone for a bend or three or through some traffic and you soon know whether they are any good or not. Relaxed riders look relaxed...

 

[Fred Dibnah]

Fall in love with your tyres !! Look where you want go and Bingo...ya goin round bends



Did ya like that

 

[Wrigsby1]

Fall in love with your tyres !! Look where you want go and Bingo...ya goin round bends



Did ya like that

Hey! theres only one Fred Dibnah

I once was speaking to a retired Traffic boy and he said "watch the exit point and the bike will get round" or similar. I thought about all those times when something small appeared on the cornering line like gravel, diesel, or once even a dead rabbit and used to teach what really happens which is watching the exit and the road surface!

I used to tell students to "observe" how often their eyes would flick around all the important info in front of them. When I was a courier my eyes were flicking around changing direction and distance all the time which surprised me. Sort of reminded me of why they were so red after getting home late after a few dark hours in the city!

When i used to go for blasts in the country when living in the SW i realised how little I had seen any of the views and scenery as i was concentrating intently on the road in front