IAM...VFM ?

[JohnnyBoxer]

Cheers Trebor

In answer to the OP's question, is the IAM value for money?

Absolutely ... nothing to lose and everything to gain. You can't put a value on knowledge, any knowledge

I'd gain more knowledge, spending 2 days with you though on a 1:1 basis

 

[Micky]

Thanks for that reply Micky,got to say I totally agree with your comments.

I would also like to see a more uniform and structured level of instruction and examination for observers.
I understand the IAM are attempting to look at this but from the proposals I've seen it all looks somewhat convoluted.

Thanks for the link,some useful reading there.

Steve.

It'll never happen Steve, if it does people would just be clones

Every set of circumstances are different, ne'er to be repeated textbook fashion, so to teach people how to negotiate certain problems is bloody difficult to say the least. I often have people complaining that one observer told him to do it 'this way', another said 'that way' ... we can't look down a column, across a column and come up with the definitive answer. OK, so five different observers teach five different ways ... no problem. You pick out from each what works for you, what you like, what you are comfy with ... and you should end up being a better rider than any of them

We do need to teach people to think for themselves, to ask is it necessary, how can I get hurt here?

Some observers teach we must do a shoulder check every time we turn .... bullshit

Some observers teach we must be to the nearside for a right hand bend .... bullshit

Some observers teach we must be towards the white line for left hand bends .... total bullshit

There are time when we should, and times when we needn't and unfortunately a lot of people come for test that don't know the difference because they've been told ....

Quite a few associates come for test and know exactly where they need to be for each bend and hazard, but unfortunately only negotiate one bend/hazard at a time, complete that and then swoop suddenly and abruptly into position for the next .... FAIL

Some associates come for test and swerve for metal covers and grates, and I mean swerve at the last second, the last few feet, to miss them .... FAIL
Even in the dry and when the bike is vertical

It's not rocket science, it's about gumption and flair ... and they're not easy to teach

Examiners aren't really supposed to get involved with local groups, they're s'posed to keep their distance. Why I have no idea! There are groups that never see their examiner only at test time. Here at Sheffield I get involved, the group asks me. We are now organising my riding out with senior observers to 'kick the ball about' It can only be to everyone's benefit, mine included.

I'd gain more knowledge, spending 2 days with you though on a 1:1 basis

I've ridden round Europe with you JB and there's not a lot I could teach ya

 

[Littledumptruck]

The motorcycling side of the IAM is really a pain in the but to them, but they had to have us. It's all about business and making money to London.

I go to the area Examiner meetings and can say that just about every examiner in the country would love a Gold, Silver or Bronze certificate test pass scheme, but London will not take that on board because they think they will lose money (they told me so) and because RoSPA do it

At the moment anyone that goes for test and gives a superb ride gets the same certificate as an 'only juster' ... this is not fair and does the IAM no favours. As far as I am concerned, and this will not be the view of a lot of other Examiners, there are no 'only justers' in my book

So the IAM, in their efforts, bring in the F1rst Certificate whereby anyone that comes for test and gets all 1's gets a 'F1rst Cerificate' (I had one last month from another group) Great ... due acknowledgement for a better than average ride

But why not ... all 1's a Gold, 1's and 2's get a Silver. Any 3's would get a Bronze. Simple and gives a true reflection of the associates ride. If they feel they could have, or should have, done better they can come back and attempt to gain a higher certificate.

It's happens that in different areas, examiners, senior observers and observers have different ideas of what is right, what's OK etc. and long may it be so. I regularly get associates for test that have been taught just enough to pass a test ... Press the green button get some food, press the blue button get some water, press the red button and get an electric shock ... they're taught to pass a test, regimentational, just that .... they are not taught to think for themselves.

I had one guy I failed twice, his riding and that of his wife was abysmal, she didn't come for test. They went out of the area and both passed

As far as I am concerned, if I pass someone, they have reached a standard that is equivalent to a Silver within RoSPA

I had a guy for test only this morning, from the Rotherham Group Red1, and despite inclement weather and conditions he gave a crackin' ride. Good smooth safe progress. Just a couple of little 'niggles' that stopped him getting a F1rst

And yes .... it's a mere £26.00 expenses an examiner gets per test!

Some hints and tips right here

It'll never happen Steve, if it does people would just be clones

Every set of circumstances are different, ne'er to be repeated textbook fashion, so to teach people how to negotiate certain problems is bloody difficult to say the least. I often have people complaining that one observer told him to do it 'this way', another said 'that way' ... we can't look down a column, across a column and come up with the definitive answer. OK, so five different observers teach five different ways ... no problem. You pick out from each what works for you, what you like, what you are comfy with ... and you should end up being a better rider than any of them

We do need to teach people to think for themselves, to ask is it necessary, how can I get hurt here?

Some observers teach we must do a shoulder check every time we turn .... bullshit

Some observers teach we must be to the nearside for a right hand bend .... bullshit

Some observers teach we must be towards the white line for left hand bends .... total bullshit

There are time when we should, and times when we needn't and unfortunately a lot of people come for test that don't know the difference because they've been told ....

Quite a few associates come for test and know exactly where they need to be for each bend and hazard, but unfortunately only negotiate one bend/hazard at a time, complete that and then swoop suddenly and abruptly into position for the next .... FAIL

Some associates come for test and swerve for metal covers and grates, and I mean swerve at the last second, the last few feet, to miss them .... FAIL
Even in the dry and when the bike is vertical

It's not rocket science, it's about gumption and flair ... and they're not easy to teach

Examiners aren't really supposed to get involved with local groups, they're s'posed to keep their distance. Why I have no idea! There are groups that never see their examiner only at test time. Here at Sheffield I get involved, the group asks me. We are now organising my riding out with senior observers to 'kick the ball about' It can only be to everyone's benefit, mine included.

Just about the best thing I've seen written about advanced riding in ages, spot on.

 

[Giles]

We are now organising my riding out with senior observers to 'kick the ball about'

I think yer absolutely right there.


I suppose my bug bear is what you mention - an inability to have that 'step back, see the big picture, think for myself and do this..' way of thinking.

And you only get that with, as you say, kicking the ball about with those free spirits. Otherwise it just ends up painting by numbers.

 

[Micky]

I think yer absolutely right there.


I suppose my bug bear is what you mention - an inability to have that 'step back, see the big picture, think for myself and do this..' way of thinking.

And you only get that with, as you say, kicking the ball about with those free spirits. Otherwise it just ends up painting by numbers.

Cheers Giles ... I used to ride out with the Senior Observers and Observers many years ago, we had a great time 'kicking the ball about'

But there are observer out there now, that have their 'ticket' and for some reason don't want to put their riding on the line and come 'kick the ball about'

I've even spoke to a couple of associates where their observer will not give a demo ride to show the newcomer what it's all about

Ha ... painting by numbers

 

[Rasher]

The original question is does the IAM provide value, I think first time around the Skills for Life does, especially as it seems most observers either refuse to take any expense money, or subsidise it considerably.

Not for me

I'd sooner pay £300 to a 'recognised' ex Police Class 1/RoSPA Gold 'professional' riding instructor who does it 'fulltime' for a 1:1

2 day course of highly personalised training

I fancy something like that at some point, but it is a completely different offering, as are track based training (CSS etc) with Skills for Life you get about 6 observed rideouts, maybe more at some clubs (assuming you need them)

I think many new, or less naturally talented riders (I don't mean lap times, just some people seem to be able to ride very well with little training, whilst others need more help) would benefit greatly from skills for life, and with the groups meetings they can also ask questions and get advice on an ongoing basis - I would want to go on the £300 course once I am already at the IAM standard.

Beyond that year I think the value drops a lot, I think the IAM do some good work lobbbying and stuff, but the ongoing cost seems an expensive way to meet up with fellow bikers at a pub, when ths can be done for free at lots of venues around the country.

I only saved £9 on this years insurance, but that was a genuine £9 off the best deal I could get, but still a saving.

Not sure about graded passes, the problem is the examiners (skilled though they are) sometimes have a limited view of what your doing, where your looking and why you made a decision - sometimes they may think it was not the best, although had they been exactly where you were at exactly the same time they may have done the same.

I would also imagine that where one examiner may give a 1 another may give a two, I suspect they are unlikely to be more than 1 mark away from one another, but it still makes judging to very fine degrees difficult, which is why I prefer ROSPA, with the First it seems too hit and miss, I think an "Distinction" system with number of 1's and 2's would be fairer as I bet a lot of riders put together a mainly 1's ride with one examiner, that could easily have been a first with another, or vice versa.

Regardless of how peope see the IAM with regard to money making(grabbing) the training is worthwhile for many riders and provides good value regardless of if it could / should be cheaper.

 

[phooey]

Not sure about graded passes, the problem is the examiners (skilled though they are) sometimes have a limited view of what your doing, where your looking and why you made a decision - sometimes they may think it was not the best, although had they been exactly where you were at exactly the same time they may have done the same.

I beg to differ. If I am observing your ride I have a very good idea of where you should be on the road at any given time. If you aren't there I will want to know your reasoning. Where I consider your position could have been better I will explain why. I am riding the same stretch of road in the same conditions, usually at the same speed, with a very similar view and as close as safety allows. If my view of you, the route and what you are doing is limited to the point I can't accurately review your riding I'm not observing.

 

[advancedbiker]

The RoSPA side of things - Examiners view

Just thought I would like to endorse the views raised by Micky. I have the same issues. The MUST approach, because it says so in Roadcraft. Advanced riding is great and I applaud all those riders who go on to improve their riding, BUT if it is to be effective, it's applicatiojn must NOT be rigid. I teach it as: It has to be flexible and adapted immediately to the circumstances at the time.
It does wind me up when I get riders being marked down, say for poor positioning on bends, say a right hander when there is a junction......As an advanced rider, if the junction is clear and there is no likelyhood of there being a danger .... I could go on........

Oh forgot - Rospa - £54.00 for the test..........

 

[g.s.john]

Never did RoSPA or IAM training but did two Bikesafe days one at Keston and one at the Ace cafe.
Also did a one day course with Rapid training www.rapidtraining.co.uk with a police class 1 rider i learnt more in that one day than anything else not cheap but definatly VFM.

 

[Giles]

Not sure about graded passes, the problem is the examiners (skilled though they are) sometimes have a limited view of what your doing, where your looking and why you made a decision - sometimes they may think it was not the best, although had they been exactly where you were at exactly the same time they may have done the same.

I'm afraid I agree with Phooey here Rasher ..

Any instructor / examiner worth his salt will know exactly what yer up to.

You get a feel for somebodies ride simply because you're matching it. What you look at, I look at. So If I'm sitting behind a rider thinking ''Ummmm, we're coming into a reasonably sharp bend and I saw the two vehicles ahead of us jam their brakes on just as they dissapeared round it ...Come on fella .... if I was you I'd be .....''

I want to be thinking ... ''Ummmm we're coming into a reasonably sharp bend ahead of us and I saw the ... Ahhh nice, you've spotted that split second view of brakelights too, oooooo luverly acceleration sense .... Ahh that's great, you've floated round the corner having taken a gear, you've anticipated something out of sight waiting to turn right, and you've glided into a position on the offside to punch past the two cars who are now virtually stopped once the lorry has turned. That's a cracking bit of planning, You were obviously thinking exactly what I was thinking ..... ''

 

[Giles]

Also did a one day course with Rapid training www.rapidtraining.co.uk with a police class 1 rider i learnt more in that one day than anything else not cheap but definatly VFM.

 

[red1]

I suspect that many organisations like this are run for the benefit of their officers rather than their customers, which I why I have no interest in them.

Quite right.

The top 3 in IAM take nearly £500,000 out of the coffers every year and even took a £20,000 rise last year!!!!
Maybe that's why the subs went up by another £1 and probably will again this year.

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

Quite right.

The top 3 in IAM take nearly £500,000 out of the coffers every year and even took a £20,000 rise last year!!!!
Maybe that's why the subs went up by another £1 and probably will again this year.

Another reason why I wouldn't bother then, if that's true and correct

3 Fat Cats milking £1000's from Observer's hardwork & time, given freely by enthusiasts voluntarily

It stinks

 

[red1]

Another reason why I wouldn't bother then, if that's true and correct

3 Fat Cats milking £1000's from Observer's hardwork & time, given freely by enthusiasts voluntarily

It stinks

It's in black and white on the IAM site in the accounts. Top man got £160,000 last year.

What's pissing me off is the start of a cycling section FFS!!!!!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

What's pissing me off is the start of a cycling section FFS!!!!!!

Smart Cookie's

There will be more call for that in 5 years time, when the motorcycling is in terminal decline

 

[earwig]

Back on topic ....

A Newbies view ….

Although I’m not new to using the roads (passed car test back in the 70’s and taught by ex-police instructor), then also held coach/bus licence for a number of years; I am very new to bikes as only passed my test last August

We all know that the roads today are crowded and with a higher than expectable number of illegal and/or idiot drivers. Well …. For one, I want to have many years enjoying my nice shiny F650GS twin So, what do I do. For me it is the IAM skills for life as it offers me a view into advanced riding techniques and skills at times suitable to me, and at what I would consider to be a reasonable cost (anybody done CBT then DAS lately!!! ). It also offers a chance to get to know other local riders of a known standard, whom you can get to ride out with and also socialise with (if you fit in with your local group ).
I did chat with my Bro in law, who’s a senior with KAMG (not local to me ) before I signed up for the IAM skills for life deal. Having talked with him, I certainly realised how much I could learn and how much it could improve my enjoyment of biking.

At the end of the day:
1: Do you want to improve your biking skills and enjoyment as well as your safety level?
2: What price do you put on your neck?

 

[harry the cat]

Is it worth it? I think it is for the reasons already given and chiefly because any training will benefit you if it's properly delivered and you listen!

I'm a born again biker who passed there DSA test in 2005, IAM test in 2008 and I'm now an observer working to get my third 'client' through the test. What the associates get in addition to the booklets, test, 'cheap' insurance etc. is a lot of input from the observers, up to three hours a session including debrief and general chat. They also get access to a community, tour opportunities, and signposting to other training.

I've never known anyone in my own group (Sheffield) take cash from an associate but I do accept a bacon sandwich and a mug of tea, which seems fair to me.

I agree with JB that intensive training from a professional is great and I say that having spent quite a lot of time with Micky and Andy who took over Micky's training business when the old man took a back seat. I've learnt loads from them on various trips and it's been invaluable. I've also taken i2i courses and learnt valuable bits and pieces from them.

The bottom line though is professional training is quite expensive, not everyone has the funds, and many would benefit from that level of training when they've spent a bit of time with IAM or ROSPA.

In terms of the IAM image and hierarchy there are problems. It isn't easy to attract the younger riders for various reasons (cost being one of them) but I have seen the average age drop in the few years since I joined. It's now well under 60

The Headquarters of IAM seems to be led by the usual corporate clones who see things in terms of grand strategy and have little interest in what is happening on the ground. Local groups are largely kept going by some very committed volunteers who get little reward.

Overall I would spend the £139 again for the benefit I got from the process.

Damn, I've been nice to Micky. How did that happen?

 

[Wrinkly]

So, that appears to have answered my original question in that it would appear that the majority believe the IAM is value for money and I agree that overall it most probabley is when compared to commercial trainers but possibly not when you consider the IAM is a CHARITY.

I'm fairly passionate about rider training , I see training as an ongoing process and hopefully I will continue to develop as a rider and a trainer for the rest of my riding life.

Whilst generally most IAM groups offer a fantastic service,it is the groups who offer this with very little input or financial support from the main body of the IAM,and I do know that there are many a good observer that has had to either give up or postpone their role as observers because they can no longer afford to do so.

Within our group there are many of us that believe it is possible to offer a high standard of training without being under the umbrella of the IAM and I believe there are already several groups throughout the country that have successfully achieved this,and give their associates the opportunity to take the IAM test if they wish to do so.
We are actually fairly well into the development of this group and hopefully it will give us the opportunity to continue to provide a first class service for both the associates and the observers,and also to possibly shake off the pipe and slippers image of advanced motorcycling.

I'll keep you posted of developments if folk are interested,and any ideas of what people feel needs to be done would be more than welcome.

Steve

 

[sgtzara]

It certainly represented excellent value for money in my eyes. I'm 'only' 33 and was somewhat concerned that I'd be surrounded by older folk riding BMWs and Pan Europeans. While certainly that is the case for 75% of my group, I've been made to feel more than welcome and indeed there is a good social aspect to it. I was lucky enough to pass my IAM test on the first go with all 1s (get to join the F1RST Register) and indeed I celebrated by buying a BMW R1200 RT (sold my Yamaha XJ6 Diversion).

I always paid for snacks for my observer when out on runs along with £10 towards petrol costs. Bearing in mind that most runs were 2+hrs, you wouldn't get that anywhere else.

Certainly ironed out my initial weaknesses, overtaking, cornering, speed etc. and at the end of the day, if what I have learnt from the IAM makes me a safer rider and helps me anticipate/keep out of trouble then it's money well spent. No regrets.

 

[Coolcarbon]

Why does the IAM use the term 'Observer'...it sounds so passive.

'Associate' sounds as if they are already members but without having taken any form of test/exam, how can that be?

Surely it should be Instructor and Student...

Other organisations seem to....

Plain English works for me, then again, I am but a Simply Soul....