Mapsource in Canada - is it crap, or am I doing something wrong??

[MikeO]

I'm using a BMW Navigator II (2610 effectively), , Software Version 3.50, Audio Version 2.10, loaded with USA City Navigator V5, Mapsource V5.4.

Okay - using the unit in the USA has been fine - no problem. As I crossed into Canada 2 days ago, the information disappeared at the border. At first, I thought I'd neglected to load the correct maps, although I was still expecting to see the basemap.

That evening, I re-loaded the correct maps at Fort MacLeod and, the next morning, set off towards Banff. I rode up Highway 22 - which appeared on the map - so long as I didn't zoom any closer than the 8km range scale - if I tried to zoom closer, the road I was on disappeared from the display. If I zoomed back out, it re-appeared. The towns in the area, Cowley, Longview etc, didn't appear on the map, nor could they be found by the 'Find' function. I re-loaded the maps last night, but found the same problem today - plus, according to the unit's 'Find' function, ther are no motels or hotels in Kamloops, whereas there are, in fact, many hotels - I'm typing this from one...

Any ideas? I'd accept it was bad mapping if it weren't for the roads being there when on a larger range scale...

I'm cross posting this on ADVRider and emailing Garmin with it...

Mike

 

[Greg Masters]

Mike

It sounds like you are using a unit with a European basemap. If you are, try loading WorldMap to cover the same areas as your NACNv5.

However, having reread your post it looks like the unit is not reading the mapping data properly.

I don't think that it would make much differnce, but you're using now outdated firmware and MapSource (current = v3.7 & v6.3).

Greg

 

[MikeO]

Mike

It sounds like you are using a unit with a European basemap. If you are, try loading WorldMap to cover the same areas as your NACNv5.

However, having reread your post it looks like the unit is not reading the mapping data properly.

I don't think that it would make much differnce, but you're using now outdated firmware and MapSource (current = v3.7 & v6.3).

Greg

Hi Greg,

no, it's a US unit, with a USA basemap. The plot has thickened slightly...

Whilst re-loading the maps yet again, I got an'error' message saying that some of the maps weren't unlocked - 4 in total, including Kamloops... I tried 're-unlocking' them using the code supplied, without success - another Email to to Garmin, I feel...

Mike

 

[PanEuropean]

Mike O:

I encountered exactly the same problems as you describe last summer, when I was riding through Western Canada doing beta-testing of the SP2650 before it went on sale. FYI, my home is in Canada.

Here is the explanation: CityNavigator North America has very limited coverage of Canada, outside of the 5 largest urban agglomerations and outside of southern Ontario. In many parts of Western Canada - Fort McLeod being a prime example - the coverage of CN NA is almost non-existent.

You have two ways of fixing your problem. One way is to buy the MetroGuide Canada version 4 CD, it will cost you about USD $90, and give you phenomenal coverage of all of Canada, especially the rural areas. This CD is not serial number locked, so you can sell it to someone else after you have finished your Canadian tour. It's new, and in fairly high demand, so the net cost to you will probably only be about USD $50.

The other way you can fix your problem is to turn off the CN NA maps in your GPSR. Yes, I know this sounds strange, but I mean exactly what I said - turn off all the CN NA maps. If you don't know how to de-select the maps using the GPSR touchscreen, just remove the data chip from the GPSR and use it without a data chip in it.

What will then happen is you will be using the base map only. The base map actually has better coverage of rural Canadian secondary roads than CN NA has. The problem is, if you have the CN NA maps enabled, they take precedence over the base map, even though the base map has better data. Hence the need to disable CN NA, or remove the data chip.

About the '8 mile changeover' you are seeing on the screen - that can be real tricky to figure out on your own, so here's the answer for you: The SP 26xx GPSR's, like the SP III, use the basemap only to draw the screen picture once the zoom gets out beyond a certain level. That's why roads are appearing (from the base map) when you zoom out, and disappearing (because they are not on the detail map, meaning, CN NA) when you zoom in. But, even though the GPSR uses basemap data to draw the screen at the wide zooms (this is to speed up screen redraws), it continues to use the [unseen] CN NA data from the CF card to calculate routes. Because the roads don't exist on the CN NA data, it can't calculate a route, even though you see the road (from the basemap) on the screen.

Hope this answers your question. Best fix is to buy MetroGuide Canada, it is really great cartography - I bought it last fall when it came out. Second best fix is to remove the CF card, and just run on the basemap unless you are close to Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, Montreal, or other areas that you know have good coverage with CN NA.

Please forward this answer on to Garmin tech support, sometimes if you get a new employee answering your email, the new person may not be familiar with this little "Canadian" map glitch.

PanEuropean

PS: Go to this post that I made on another BB, and scroll down until you see my rather long post of August 2, 2003. This will explain your problem (my problem, too) in more detail.

PPS: The same problem will happen to you in rural Idaho, Wyoming, and Washington states. Same fix - turn off CN NA.

PPPS: Those of you who live in Ireland and have European basemaps may find that the basemap alone gives you better coverage outside of the cities than the CN Europe CD does. Experiment.

 

[PanEuropean]

Greg:

You observation is correct, Mike's firmware and PC application are out of date, but neither one is germane to the problem he is having.

The changes from system software 2.5 to 2.7 don't affect his problem, and the version of MapSource he is using has nothing to do with it at all - what version of MapSource you use will only affect performance of MapSource itself when you are running it on your PC, it has nothing at all to do with the GPSR.

I had the same problem last summer with system software 1.90 and MapSource 4.something, and this particular Canadian map problem will still be around with system software 8.3 and MapSource version 15. The only thing that will fix it will be a future release of CityNavigator North America that has more detail in rural Canada.

PanEuropean

 

[Greg Masters]

The only thing that will fix it will be a future release of CityNavigator North America that has more detail in rural Canada.

PanEuropean

With thousands of square miles of wilderness, prairie and lakes, you wouldn't have thought that mapping the few roads that exist would take too long! Give someone in Ottawa a nudge!!



Greg

 

[PanEuropean]

Actually, not a matter of giving anyone in Ottawa a nudge, more like giving someone in Holland a nudge.

DTMI Spatial, a Canadian company, has put together the cartographic data that is used in the "Garmin MetroGuide Canada version 4" CD. As I mentioned earlier, this is first-class cartography, much of it taken from Government of Canada data, including air surveys.

Navteq, the big company that puts out the CityNavigator products (North America, Europe, etc.) is headquartered in Netherlands. They don't have any interest in mapping rural areas, simply because there is not a great demand for that kind of information. I can't blame them - after all, the product is called CityNavigator, not BackwoodsNavigator.

Navteq sells their cartographic data to many, many people - Garmin is a good customer of Navteq, but Garmin probably doesn't account for more than 10% of Navteq's sales. Navteq is very strongly focused on producing highly sophisticated routing products for urban areas that are used in specialized, high added value applications, such as vehicle dispatch. This is why Garmin has contracted with other companies - DTMI Spatial being a good example - to provide more comprehensive coverage of 'lesser populated' areas.

CN North America's coverage of Canada has gradually improved over the last 3 releases of the product. CN NA now has pretty detailed street level coverage of about 80% of the Canadian population. Unfortunately, the reality is that 90% of the Canadian population lives within 50 miles of the Canada-USA border, in less than 5% of the total land mass of the country. When Navteq reaches the 90% coverage level of Canada, based on population, they will have only mapped 5 to 7% of the physical area of the country.

PanEuropean

 

[Fanum]

Mike.......allow me to summarise........

You're doing it wrong bud.



Now stop friggin whining about maps, get up tommorrow morning, pick a direction and ride till you want to stop....repeat until you're fed up with Canada , or you ride into the sea.........

Easy !!!!

Cheers

Bill

 

[Steve B]

Mike

If you're heading to Banff, call in the RCMP station behind the Greyhound Bus depot and ask for Nancy. Tell her Steve from the UK sent you and she'll give you a map all the directions you need.
Where are you heading for after Banff?

Steve B

PS
If you do buy the Metro Guide Canada, I'll buy it off you when (if) you ever get back here.

 

[PanEuropean]

"...call in the RCMP station behind the Greyhound Bus depot and ask for Nancy. Tell her Steve from the UK sent you and she'll give you a map all the directions you need."

Yea, right. Tell her Steve from the UK sent you, and Nancy will probably give you a free night's lodging in the Crowbar Hotel. You won't need a map or GPS to get there, it's in the basement of the police station.

 

[Steve B]

Hey! She only used the handcuffs on me as a demonstration. It wasn't her fault she couldn't find the keys for two days!
Actually you Canucks are really quite nice.

Steve B

PS
Just noticed Mike's in Kamloops now so he's missed his chance.

 

[MikeO]

Pan,

thanks very much - explained in lay-idiots detail as usual - don't stop posting here, will you?...

Mike

 

[boundless]

Don't be lemming it over the Cliffs of Mohir!

PPPS: Those of you who live in Ireland and have European basemaps may find that the basemap alone gives you better coverage outside of the cities than the CN Europe CD does. Experiment.

A suitable gem to remember for those going on the LaHinch run in August?

 

[Banjaxed]

And handy...

...for those headed to Wyoming this summer!
Thanks Pan.

 

[PanEuropean]

I'm glad I could help with this one. It took the combined efforts of myself (as field tester), two software engineers, and one cartographic specialist about a week to figure out what was causing this problem when I was riding in Western Canada last summer, so don't feel too bad about not figuring it out on your own.

The MetroGuide Canada CD is a unique product - Canada is the only current MetroGuide I know of that supports autorouting on the GPSR and does not require an unlock code. It is also quite inexpensive, compared to the CN and CS products, which makes it pretty easy to justify the price if you plan a trip of, say, two weeks or more. I have only had a chance to use it in rural Ontario since I bought it, but I am quite impressed with it based on that experience.

It is worth noting, though, that if you have both CityNavigator North America and MetroGuide Canada version 4, you should use the CN NA cartography when you are within the large Canadian cities that CN NA does cover. Although what you see on the screen is very similar on both products, CN NA has far more invisible road attributes than MG Canada 4 does, and because of all the additional attribute detail, CN NA does a far better job of both autorouting you and providing precisely scripted visual and audio prompts for the turns and lane changes.

Also, don't forget, if you have both products (CN and MG) loaded, the "pecking order" of maps (worldwide) is as follows: CN, CS, MG, RR, WorldMap, BlueChart. Whatever is highest in the pecking order will overlay everything else, even if something lower in the pecking order has better coverage. This means that if you have two or more products loaded for the same area, you need to de-select (turn off) the higher-ranked ones that you don't want.

If you think that's complicated, just try using the new GPSmap 296, which has a minimum of 6 different cartography products in it at any one time: Terrain database showing surface elevations, obstacle database showing man-made spot elevations (towers, buildings), standard basemap, Jeppesen aviation data, road cartography (e.g. CN), and marine navigation data (BlueChart). On my recent trip to Africa, I had 8 different products loaded, all the above plus CS South Africa and WorldMap. It took me about 3 weeks of study to figure out the basics of using the thing, and I have a little bit of experience with GPSRs....

PanEuropean

 

[Steve B]

Hey Pan

Lots of excellent advice but what would you recommend for a novice like me who intends to spend a year crossing Canada who wants to go anywhere, not just the cities? How detailed is the info for say the maritimes (PEI,NS,NB etc)?

Cheers

Steve B

 

[BurnieM]

Also, don't forget, if you have both products (CN and MG) loaded, the "pecking order" of maps (worldwide) is as follows: CN, CS, MG, RR, WorldMap, BlueChart. Whatever is highest in the pecking order will overlay everything else, even if something lower in the pecking order has better coverage.

Are you sure that is the pecking order ?

I always understood it was;
City Navigator
City Select
MetroGuide
Blue Chart
Fishing Hotspots
Water Waypoints and Lights
Road & Recreation
Topo
World Map

 

[PanEuropean]

Hi Burnie:

You may be right, because what I wrote was based only on my own experimentation, not on any written documentation provided by Garmin.

It is also possible that the different "families" of GPSRs may use a different pecking order, more appropriate to their purpose. My list was based on my experience with the automotive units - the SP III and SP 26xx. It makes sense that these would give priority to road maps.

I think you use a marine unit (a 276), it would make sense for the marine units to give greater priority to the BlueChart and Fishing maps.

I'll see if I can get a conclusive answer from Garmin.

PanEuropean