Nippy Norman's split Autoswitch thread.

[Nippy Norman]

AUTOSWITCH

MODERATOR'S EDIT....

This post was moved and split from Rob's Autoswitch thread as it was considered a blatant Hijack


More information coming...I've just spoken to Paul and we have a solution coming up, but for the time being, here it is.

End of edit.

_________________________________________






We will have stocks of the Autoswitch from Sept 3rd priced at £12.99.

This 5NB version of the Autoswitch is designed to suit all BMW models from 1995 on.
It takes a negative (ground) pulse from your turn signal cancel button. You just hold the button for more than 0.8 second to switch your auxiliary light relay on or off.
When you want to cancel a turn signal you do it normally, by a quick tap on the button, usually no more than half a second.

In addition there is also a 5N2 version.
The 5N2 version is to be used as a SECOND controller for a second use. Activates a second relay without affecting the first one. This model takes 2 quick pulses BEFORE the 1.2-10.0 second release window of the normal 5NB.
It takes a negative (ground) pulse from your turn signal cancel button. You just hold the button for more than 0.8 second to switch your auxiliary light relay on or off.
When you want to cancel a turn signal you do it normally, by a quick tap on the button, usually no more than half a second.

WIRING DIAGRAM ATTACHED

 

[Nippy Norman]

SEE

www.NippyNormans.com

for more information

 

[Fanum]

I suspect I'm not the only one that has their hackles up right now.


Nippy Norman.......be aware that you are treading on toes here.

You have some good products......I can't complain about either the service or the price on the bar risers I got from you, however I'm very uncomfortable with the spamming of your products that you have been doing in the last few days....and adding a commercial plug for a product that a much liked and respected senior member of the forum on that member's own thread is out of order IMO....

As the forum and its membership gets bigger , there will be things like this that crop up from time to time .....personally, for an item like Rob's autoswitch I'd rather go to him because I know him and trust him, plus I can speak to him at any time and get advice and talk about modifications as many people have on this very thread..... that in itself is worth paying the difference in price to me, as well as knowing that Rob has put in a heck of a lot of work for us as GSers in developing his product....TBH your post here has rather pissed me off.......

It's an interesting problem......what's next at Nippy Norman's emporium....a ram mount that attaches to the speedo, oil cooler grills customised with GS logo??

You might be able to do things cheaper....some may say that as long as the quality of the product doesn't drop too much then that's fine, but I for one am uncomfortable with it, even if you are cheaper.

Be aware though, price might well have its limits........we are a loyal bunch and I've no doubt I'm not alone in being irritated by this.




I'm going to split this into a different thread....partly because it'll be interesting to hear the views of the other memebrs of the forum who read this, and partly because your post, on reflection, is a dodgy commercial thread hijack.

Bill

 

[MiGSel]

Yea really!

Amazingly cheeky to not even start your own thread for this!

You are showing a sad lack of respect here NN.

Michel

 

[Commuter]

Split Thread

So where's the thread as I thought this reaction was coming when I read the post last night.

Nippy, you offer good products but you are heading towards people really hating you if you carry on.

Now bill where is the split thread as I think people will have a number of comments.......cue Gecko.

Just my opinion of course.

Nick

 

[Gecko]

I rest my case.......the man is here for one reason and one reason only : to get you to open your wallets and fleece you.

 

[Fanum]

OK chaps, sorry about the slight delay in splitting...I wasn't mod for the Tech section last night

I've just got off the phone with Paul and a possible good solution to this problem is that we create a 'commercial vendor' section.

There is a big difference between people like Rob, Migsel, Reyno and various others who are selling and creating their own products on a small scale, and larger fully commercial operations like Nippy Norman's.

Obviously we don't want to cut off our noses to spite our faces, and Nippy Norman does do some good products and some at good prices...that's up to you to make your mind up on and spend your money accordingly, but equally we don't want the 'little guys' to suffer, and last night's thread hijack and recent spamming of large parts of a business' catalogue isn't what the vendors and innovators forum was intended for.

To this end, Paul is going to create a 'commercial vendor' section, (not necessarily its final name but that gets the idea across) where people such as N.N can advertise their wares without stepping on toes.......To be able to advertise in it, these vendors will of course have to pay considerably more which will assist in the running costs of the site, which are a lot more than many may realise.

It will also mean that they won't be welcome to spam stuff elsewhere and certainly won't be allowed to hijack anyone else's ideas in their own thread.

Ultimately this may mean that the smaller oprerators are put under some price pressures on their kit, but that's the nature of life sadly.

I'm sure though that many of you will continue to support and buy items from people like Rob, knowing that you get the personal touch and that he's 'one of us' and buy from him for those reasons.....I certainly will as those things are important to me.

It's a difficult call....but these suppliers exist and if we can get discounts sorted for UKGSers as part of the deal, IMO it will be better tho have them on-board and contributing to the upkeep of the site rather than having them selling stuff anyway with no benefit to the site and its members.

Hopefully this solution will benefit us all and minimise the impact and irritation of potential hijacks and spamming of different forums by full commercial operations.



What do you lot think???

Bill

 

[shuck raider]

Seems like a fair solution to me. Like Nick, I thought there would be a pretty violent reaction to NN's post on Rob's thread and like Bill I was pretty pissed off about it, having supported several of the 'little guys' on here over the years. If I can't find it on this site then I go to my local dealer, TT or Wunderbra, in that order.

One of the strengths of this place is its sense of community and even though we bicker and moan, generally people do look out for each other. I regret the commercialisation but realise that there's a big bad world out there and if money can be made, there are folks who will trawl every avenue to do so. Fair enough, but let's hang on to (and actively support) our Innovators and (private) Vendors, that's partly what this place is about

 

[Sergeant Pluck]

I recognise that this is a very tricky little problem to deal with, but I worry a little about a 'commerical vendors' section. Once Nippys in there, who's next? Motorworks?, Motorbins?, BMW park Lane?!! All of these people sell BM stuff but we would never tolerate them spamming our forum, despite the fact that some of them are excellent outfits selling decent stuff. And would we then have to accept postings from, I don't know, less closely GS-related and more aggresive companies like Oxford Products for instance, or big insurance companies just because they paid their (albeit inflated) fee's like Nippy did?

Where will it all end and will it turn this forum into just a big directory / advertising stall?

We already have a 'Dealers' section where we can promote / slag off the big boys. What about letting outfits like Nippy simply have an enhanced listing in the 'Links' section at the top of the page - and then letting us collective decide whether they are any good in the time honoured fashion of discussing them in the relevant section?

Just my thoughts...

pr0ne

 

[trotsky]

Hmmm

and where will you stick the Tobinators threads?

Sorry, just being silly. There's going to be a good deal of moderation needed though, if you do this. How do you decide who is "commercial"?

I suggest that it might just be easier to allow any one who wishes to post in the "Innovators and Vendors" section but watch for blatant hijacks like this and dump them out. You might avoid a lot of "but I'm really not a commercial vendor, I can't make enough profit to live" moans.

 

[judge]

Bill. I'm delighted you acted and I applaud the steps being taken by yourself and Paul in dealing with this problem.

Personally I embrace a means of getting the deals we desire in a way that is straightforward but not 'in your face' but sadly this has been abused in this case, though Nippy is not the first is he Melvyn?

There is a clear definition in my book between the NN's and Melvyn Hunter's of this world and the Steptoe's and Rob Farmer's and should I feel be dealt with in different ways.

FWiW, other commerical concerns have dealt professionally in their dealings, and I applaud there way of going about business.

Also FWiW I would've taken the very same course of action had I still been able to do so. Taking that a bit further there's a lot going on here and one active moderator can't begin to hope to keep on top of things, I will offer my services again and ask others willing to assist to offer their time for all our sakes.

 

[Nippy Norman]

HANDS UP....

My apologies to Rob and everyone else...
I acknowledge that adding the Autoswitch mention where we did was inappropriate .
I am just one of the 'little guys' (started the business in January)and I have already offered to pay more as a commercial concern for our membership. We only ever mention a product which is new or newsworthy (we had just been appointed distributors for Autoswitch).

If someone wants to give me guidelines then fine.

No offence meant...

 

[ncoutts]

I have been following this thread all day and wondering....

I think we ought to accept this apology with good grace. We are some sort of community here for sure, but the rules for taking part are largely unwritten as far as I know and all the better for that. We are making up the rules as we go along as far as I see.

I have bought several items via this site and assumed that the seller was entitled to some sort of return on the effort they put into making the kit available. Its not clear to me that you can make a distinction in black and white between commercial and non-commercial vendors.

But you can recognise an inappropriate posting when you see one. Nippy made a mistake in his posting and has been good enough to hold his hand up and admit to it. Fairynuff I say.

Its for the powers-that-be to decide if structural changes to the topic areas will solve the problem of commercial vendors posting inappropriately. I have my doubts, but its always good to see a mistake accepted by the individual concerned.

I think we ought to move on - forgive and forget an dlearn from our mistakes. Sorry if this sounds a bit on the heavy side!

Norman (Neither Nippy nor connected in any other way)

 

[Fanum]

Thanks for the comments and ideas chaps....and Judge for your support

Nippy Norman......glad you've posted that apology, good man .

For the time being, and this is just me speaking as a moderator and not setting any rules or anything, but I think it'd be appreciated if you kept your advert posts to one thread, until we can set up a 'super sponsor' or 'commercial vendor' type section.....to this end, I'm going to merge your recent threads which have become spread (spammed) across various areas.

This will tidy them up and will hopefully cause less conflict with other vendors.

and where will you stick the Tobinators threads?

Not silly at all Trotsky...it's an interesting question....

Tobers had had great success (all totally deserved IMO) and I'm sure all wish him well in it......one difference though is that Andy doesn't put ads all over the place...in fact, he hardly needs to advertise at all as so many people promote his products voluntarily as they're so damn good...the first response from the board to a noob who asks what he/she should buy for their new GS is nearly always 'a set of Tobinators'....

It may well be that Tobers will wish to be in the 'commercial sponsor' section and pay Paul more for the privilege...I know he has already made a substantially bigger than normal donation alrerady, but I haven't spoken to him about it and I'm just guessing....It'd be interesting to get his point of view here.

who's next? Motorworks?, Motorbins?, BMW park Lane?!! All of these people sell BM stuff but we would never tolerate them spamming our forum, despite the fact that some of them are excellent outfits selling decent stuff.

Erm....actually, yeah , why not???

If they were confined to a special section, it would stop the spamming.

It'd also give us closer contact, possibly some nice discounts and it also means that if you didn't want to read their ad posts, when they popped up as you click 'view new posts', you wouldn't have to read them....if you saw a new post from the 'commercial' sector titled 'Nippy Normans Nice New Nuts', you'd know exactly what it was about and could ignore it if you so wished, rather than stumbling across the same ad posted in various other 'normal' forums areas.

If we ended up (and it's very very unlikely) with a BWM dealer as a sponsor able to post in the new section, think about it.....wouldn't it be good if we could get a discount deal set up?

And from a moderator's point of view, don't worry about the aspect of not being able to say what you think about a particular commercial poster........anyone who advertises here is aware that it's a robust forum (quoting Nippy Norman from a phone call ) and they would have to accept that they may well get criticised as well as praised. (heck, we'd have to ban Gecko otherwise )

Look at Park Lane and their efforts to improve their service......a very positive step forwards I reckon, and caused in no small part by the postings from Commuter and others....they haven't taken their ball away in a sulk and personally I'd like to see them or other dealers offering things here, albeit confined strictly to a different section so that it doesn't spoil or impinge on the flavour and activities of the forum as a whole.

Keep posting your thoughts...it's all interesting stuff

Bill

 

[Gecko]

And from a moderator's point of view, don't worry about the aspect of not being able to say what you think about a particular commercial poster........anyone who advertises here is aware that it's a robust forum (quoting Nippy Norman from a phone call ) and they would have to accept that they may well get criticised as well as praised. (heck, we'd have to ban Gecko otherwise )

Bill

There you go ....picking on the little guy again .....defending the fat cats and big corporations ....I mean like what did I ever do to upset anyone....... .....If people can't hack the truth then stuff em I say

As for the rest - it all sounds very reasonable and I promise to be perfectly well behaved towards any 'corporate sponsors' as long as they don't venture out of their 'cage' and start pontificating and waving thier money grabbing wares in my face. If I want something I will know where to look and can compare prices and products at leisure. I hope though that we will all keep a sharp eye open to sharp practices and poor products and services and speak out when we know it's cheaper/better elsewhere.

 

[Tobers]

I've read this thread with interest and here's my "accidental motorcycle accessories inventor cum international internet entrepreneur" view on this.

I'm obviously indebted to this site for all the fine help that people have given me in flogging Tobinators all over the world. It's still very much a hobby for me, but now Wunderlich are involved it's become more mainstream - not in terms of income or sales volumes, more in terms of them being a big proper company and having Tobinators packed nicely rather than wrapped amateurishly in bubblewrap if you see what I mean. I've happily donated to this site (and others) and will do so again to say "thanks", and I think this is the very least any vendor can do.

I avoid blatant commercial plugs as I think its a bit crass on a site like this which is really a tribal community of like minded though often slightly odd people (you know who you are). Also, the membership on this site isn't huge in the overall scheme of things, so advertising on here isn't really going to be the best way to promote a product. Sure you can get quite a few eyeballs on your product, but its nothing compared to product placement in magazines or "proper" print ads. I've thought about doing some proper adverts but to be honest I couldn't handle more demand than I currently have (however, keep an eye on TWO magazine next month where, if all goes well, I may get a mention following a favour where they borrowed by Aprilia RSV for this month's bike weight article ). Any info I do provide e.g. recently saying SPC and Vines are reselling I always put in the Vendor forum. The only exception is when I am responding to a question asked in a thread on another section.

However, for someone trying to make a living flogging bike bits like NN, the situation is rather different. To see how this works well, I'd like to give the example of my pal Andrew Fekete who runs Adventurers Workshop in the USA. Andrew started off reselling my goodies, and has added more and more products to his web site to the point where he is now quite a serious player. He is scrupulous in the way he promotes himself on Advrider. He always uses the vendor section there (and the moderators are damned quick to move anything remotely vendor related into there should it be posted elsewhere, as I found out on day 1!!). He provides informative detail on his products and great support when questions are asked on the forum.

I've no idea if or how much he's contributed to the Advrider coffers, but that's sort of irrelevant because of the following reason:

If he acts like a dickhead, he'd get torn to bits by the rest of the Advrider membership (I've seen this happen and its not pretty!), so he therefore behaves with excellent online "manners" and provides top-notch service.

If NN wants to sell his stuff, I'm quite happy for him to let us all know about it in the vendor forum. I personally wouldn't think a separate "commercial company" forum is required. It's pretty clear who is a small guy and who is running a full-scale enterprise, and if it isn't, the volume and commercial nature of the posts will make it clear. I think we can all work out for ourselves whether to buy a Motoswitch from Rob, a quitessentially polite and fine chap, or a competing product from NN who blatantly hijacks a Sir Rob's thread and inserts his own blurb into it which is rude in the extreme. A commercial thread hijack for a competing product has to be lower than the lowest thing - very poor show.

So, I'd propose that the Honorable Moderators do exactly what they've done here i.e. split of NN's thread hijack and dump it in the vendor forum. Any other sales'y type threads not in the vendor forum should be unceremoniously moved and the perp warned appropriately (I got a right telling off and have never done it again cos those Advrider guys have guns and stuff).

We can then make up our own minds who the "good guys" are. Being a tribal community, we are very fast (though not as fast as the Americans as we're too polite) to recognise bad form - a reputation built up online is a very fragile thing and is very easily ruined.

So I'd suggest to NN that he behaves with the highest of integrity and good manners otherwise he'll end up being unable to sell anything to anyone on this site.

Cheers

Andy

 

[Rob Farmer]

As usual it looks like I've missed the fun again.

To be honest I really have mixed feelings on this, my current work situation means that I had becoming increasingly unreliable in supplying the Motoswitch and lighting kits to the extent that I had to put supplying them on hold for the foreseeable future rather than let people down.
I was actually pleased when NN started supplying the Autoswitch for the price that he is and have steered people towards him. I developed the Motoswitch because the operation of the Autoswitch was awkward to use and they were difficult and comparatively expensive to obtain. My Motoswitch was never meant to be any thing more than a product for the UKGS’ers the fact that I ended up selling several hundred all over the world still leaves me with an immense sense of pride.

I do think you need to be careful with how you go about selling your products Norman, spamming my Thread just showed a complete lack of respect and was obviously meant to undermine my product. The guys on this site aren’t fools and behaviour like this will only damage your business, not for spamming my thread of course, but for the impression of you and your business that it creates.

 

[Dutchman]

Very Interesting....

Lots of good points here, well made....

I see a fundamental difference between 'dealers' such as Nippy Norman, who inhabits this site (and others) purely as part of his commercial interests, and others like Tobers, Rob Farmer and ourselves, who, as Tobers says, have become 'accidental motorcycle accessories inventors cum international internet entrepreneurs'

CoolCarbon & myself started simply by identifying a particular need for a particular model, designing it and then having it manufactured exclusively for us......we never sell other peoples products and never will.

Other products have followed and nobody was more surprised than us at the way the whole enterprise has snowballed, in such a short space of time.

Clearly our activities have taken on a distinctly commercial character and we go to great lengths to promote ourselves honestly without taking advantage of our tenure on this and other forums.

So, my question is: When do we stop being bone fide GS enthusiasts and longtime subscribers to these forums and become just another commercial vendor?

FWIW I've always communicated (privately) with the owner of these (& other) forums and indicated our intentions, BEFORE advertising our products, not only as as a courtesy but to ensure we don't break any of the thankfully few rules here.

Cheers

Dutch

 

[nadeem]

As a fairly new member here on the gser site - I've been reading with interest the comments on advertising - my job is Sales Director of a Publishing Company that has several magazines, newspapers and websites. It's interesting to see comments like :
"Also, the membership on this site isn't huge in the overall scheme of things, so advertising on here isn't really going to be the best way to promote a product. Sure you can get quite a few eyeballs on your product, but its nothing compared to product placement in magazines or "proper" print ads"

The fact is that commercial advertisers in mags, etc fall over themselves to be involved in free or low-cost advertising such as on this site. with over 600 visitors a day here that are fanatical GS riders who spend a considerable amount on their bikes.

In the overall scheme of things WE are the target market...any claims from suppliers that say they don't really need to plug their wares on sites such as this are frankly talking bollocks...
BTW most advertisers say that they don't need the mags as much anymore because they're so heavily involved in 'direct marketing' i.e. sites like this that allow them free access to a very lucrative market for them.

I'm also a moderator on a bmw car site www.bmwland.com and we have strict rules on what constitutes advertising on the site...

 

[rdover]

I've also read this thread with interest. I was unaware that Rob made an autoswitch type thing and having just bought one from NN adn found it to be excellent VFM at £13. Would I haev bought from Rob? Dunno, don't know either chap and went to NN because I visited his website.

On a general note though, I think it is unreasonable in the extreme to expect anyone to make a products like the motoswitch or Tobinators and not make a profit. Does anyone here go to work for free? Or happily do free overtime? Probably not. Time and money spent developing an idea deserves to be repaid and profited upon and to flame someone because they are trying to profit from their hard work seems , at least to me, somewhat churlish.

Someone mentioned rules. Another forum I'm a regular on is www.difflock.com which is a retail 4x4 website with a series of very very popular technical forums. I was asked by a couple of members to sell them a ground anchor that I'd imported from the USA. I had the forethought to email the sites owners to ask if it was ok to post an 'advert' post but only because theirs is a commercial site. Had it been a 'tribal' one like this would I have asked? Probably not.

My suggestion would be for the moderators to act as they did, but have a basic set of rules governing ANY commercial post no matter if small and new (Tobinators) or Norman who although experienced is also new.

1. No hijacking - if you've got a product to push you don't post it someone elses post.
2. Poasting should be restricted to a specific area ie innovators etc
3. Repeat posts are not allowed except in reply to a direct request for info by someone who hasn't the nouse to search
4. Each such post should carry the legend "Trader" or similar so no one can accuse them of trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.

Remember guys, even nasty profit hungry dealers, traders and vendors have good stuff to sell and even if it competes with someones homemade job YOU have the choice from whom to purchase. Without NN's posts (in the right place) I would have had no idea about the stuff available nor that Tobinators existed (it prompted to search more fully)

To nail MY colours to the mast, I'm a medical supplier (drug dealer - honest - I have a licence!) and my products are a must for those travelling in Europe. Now, do I get flamed for that one