Opinion please - What does the IAM teach

[Nate]

Hi all,

I'm after your opinions...

The IAM... Should it:

a) Teach people how to ride a motorcycle to a certain level, including riding at speed and making progress...

or

b) Teach people how to ride a motorcycle to a certain safety aspect that may or may not be at the speed limit and may or may not be worried about making progress...

And also

How does RoSPA deal with this somewhat paradoxical situation between the need to make progress and that of road safety

Cheers in advance

 

[Slowdown]

Stinky bait......

 

[Ogmios]

RoSPA:
i can only answer that bit - as i'm not an IAMer / but am a RoADA DIPstick

from year to year the focus changes. debates start and go on..... and on.
one example is the "gears and brake overlap" topic, done to death on some forums.

for a while it was percieved by many that RoSPA focussed on maximum progress after Safety was achieved.
this is not promoted as much as it used to be.

RoSPA teaches / promotes / preaches (?! );

Safety first.
right - now thats sorted - lets enjoy our Bikes.

at least if you trained with me, thats my approach.
if a Rider does not want to always ride to the max. of their ability / Bikes capablity - fine by me.

at Test - the examiner should be of the same mind.

however.....
the test is a demonstration ride of your application of "Roadcraft" / The System.
fail to take an opportunity (e.g. an overtake) and it may be percieved as lack of confidence / competence and you will be marked at a lesser level.

but!
this topic is extremely hard to put a proper context on online.
the debates go on and on ad nauseum (just do a search here for "what foot do you put down first" for an example )
its frustrating and pointless i.m.o.

- the only way to really get an understanding is to at least take an assessed ride with a Trainer whos opinion and standards you value and trust and take it from there.

hope that helps. - i'd be happy to help though i'm a bit far away...
mind you.... pay me fare over and......
~~
Og,
RoADA DIP.

 

[Keyframe]

ha ha ha stinky bait!

I didn't realise they'd started teaching. You just spend time on the road riding with an "observer". He/she just suggests things you might consider in future. It's not teaching or instructing. You decide whether you take a lesson from it...

 

[beemerboy9]

I don't know why this question is being asked.
You will find the definitive answers to the facts relating to your question in 3 publications.
1) The Highway Code
2) Roadcraft
3) Mind Driving by Stephen Haley

You will of course get a lot of opinions here - I hope you find them interesting.

From my experiences as an IAM and RoSPA trainee, my observers have been primarily concerend with helping not to come to grief when not under test conditions.
So there would seem to be an official (test) and an unofficial (assume nobody is watching) agendas here. No observer is going to give advice to a Fireblade rider with the firm conviction that they will never ever exceed 70 mph. Anybody watch Traffic Cops this Wednesday - with the Police Hayabusa - where a biker was shown going over 70 mph?
You may find that officials have difficulty expressing any unoffical agenda.
If a trainee is unhappy with a particular observer, the guidance of another observer should be sought.

Since these are Road Safety organisations, safety comes before progress.

 

[beemerboy9]

I don't know why this question is being asked.
You will find the definitive answers to the facts relating to your question in 3 publications.
1) The Highway Code
2) Roadcraft
3) Mind Driving by Stephen Haley

You will of course get a lot of opinions here - I hope you find them interesting.

From my experiences as an IAM and RoSPA trainee, my observers have been primarily concerend with helping not to come to grief when not under test conditions.
So there would seem to be an official (test) and an unofficial (assume nobody is watching) agendas here. No observer is going to give advise to a Fireblade rider with the firm conviction that they will never ever exceed 70 mph. Anybody watch Traffic Cops this Wednesday - with the Police Hayabusa - where a biker was shown going over 70 mph?
You may find that officials have difficulty expressing any unoffical agenda.
If a trainee is unhappy with a particular observer, the guidance of another observer should be sought.

 

[Nelsonedit]

Having recently passed my DAS (November) I found the IAM coaching has made me safer, faster, and more confident. I can ride the bike (GSA) better in all conditions.

In answer to the original question it can depend on your observer as to the focus, purely on safety to the point of frustration, or, in the majority of cases, a good biker giving helpful tips to help another biker ride better!

I would recommend IAM to anyone. My brother is gaining benefit after 25 years biking!

 

[atka]

As stated above the IAM and ROSPA are there to promote safe riding however I know of 2 riders who failed their IAM test because of being too safe and not making progress when it was possible.

As you should appreciate no organisation can promote breaking the speed limit when training you on the road, but after you pass the test if you ride with them the attitude to the speed limits on National Speed Limit roads is a bit more flexible. I don't see any difference in ROSPA and IAM views, the big difference is that the ROSPA test is graded bronze silver and gold whereas the IAM is pass or fail.

 

[Ogmios]

.... and RoSPA require a retest every 3 years - which goes a long way to keeping you sharp .
just did mine again on Saturday - good job too as i was getting lazy.

 

[Navy Boy]

Having done my IAM test in Jan this year I'd say the answer to your question is a bit of both.

Sorry to give a fuzzy answer but it depends on your observer, your riding style, how you get on with your observer and examiner on the day.

On my IAM test I didn't stray much above 60 in the National limit bits but my observer was very much of the "Making progress" attitude - Whilst doing it safely of course.

Ultimately whether its RoSPA or IAM they are almost certain to improve your riding by making you think about it a little more each time you get on a bike.

Good luck with whichever you choose.

 

[digga]

Associate IAM member ( in training!) view.

They make you think a lot more...

The book they send out is almost crap, its in desperate need of an update, all in all not very user friendly.
I recommend reading 'Not the Blue Book' , written in a far more modern style, with very useful information and tips.

my 2 'pen'th

 

[Backmarker]

As stated above the IAM and ROSPA are there to promote safe riding however I know of 2 riders who failed their IAM test because of being too safe and not making progress when it was possible.

When I was working as an instructor (CBT & bike licence, not IAM) I worked out of Wembley and Northampton. If you filtered (on your test) in Northants, you would automatically fail. If you didnt filter in Wembley you would fail.

And I thought that was fair. The imperative to filter in Northampton was rarely that great, but in North London it was (and less risky than being at the back of a queue).

And that, for me, is what IAM, RoSPA and Bikesafe have reminded me these last few years. There are no rules of what is right, wrong, best, good nor bad. It's about thinking, thinking, and then thinking.

Got criticised on an IAM organised training day with Plod: For indicating when no one was there to see it. I argued that I was doing a right turn past a corner shop, someone could have been about to exit the shop, I couldnt see in, therefore the indicator was of potential value to them as they exited. Criticism withdrawn. No right, no wrong, just what are you doing and why.

I have heard rumours of an IAM group having a large number of riders turning up and riding at 42 mph everywhere. The argument seems to be running like this. Is it safe? Yes. It is safer than riding at 43? Probably. So what is the problem? If ultimate safety is the aim, then they would be teaching people how to polish their bikes in their garages and never ride them.
And if someone passes their IAM test never exceeding 42, how can the examiner say they are safe at greater speeds.
And riding at 42 mph could be considered dangerous on 'A' roads.

So it comes back to the first bit, about can you justify what you are doing. If you can justify to the examiner that you never exceeded 42 mph for good reason, you should pass. If your only reason was that is the speed you do, then I feel it is fair that you should not pass. Not fail, there is no failure involved in this scenario, just that you have not demonstrated that you are thinking, as well as the ability to be safe up to and at the national limit.

I have never heard of anyone being accused of not making progress if they rode up to the speed limits as appropriate.

PS What happens here is they all ping past the cars in the 30mph zone, then they get to the NSLA and hold everybody up whilst they wobble round the bends that country lanes contain. Slow? Yes. Safe? Errrr. Advanced Riding: Nooooooo.

 

[Nate]

Nice set of replies... as always on here (and everywhere I guess) a completely mixed bag...

To clarify, I was just thinking about something in my head about the IAM and what it should / does preach...

Take a scenario where a guy is young, just finished DAS, therefore minimal on the road experience...

Should the IAM push him to ride at the NSL just because 'we; think it is safe to do so... at the end of the day, he doesn't have the number of years road experience etc... yet, if he doesn't demonstrate he can do it at test, he may fail...

So are 'we' putting him in a vulnerable place, just to train / test him...

by the way, i'm the chairman of a IAM group and about to do my seniors...

cheers for the replies....

Nate

 

[Keith Chapman]

I dont understand this fixation with the need to make progress, I was out today on my own and had a great ride, it was my choice whether stayed in the limit or went over it, or whether I made an over take or not, some I took others I did not if the car in front was going reasonably quickly or in MY opinion it was not safe.
I am not IAM Rospa or anything, 30years on two wheels almost every day has taught me a lot, I may not be perfect but I arrive at my destination.

Oh and I usually put my right foot down at junctions or lights

 

[Packer]

IAM is a safety organisation, first and last and in this case they are interested in the safety of people riding their bikes.

A lot accidents are caused by riders being unaware of their machines capability or having insufficient skills to utilise that capability. e.g. riding into a tightening bend and panicking, hitting the brakes resulting in running wide into oncoming traffic or off the road at a speed that the corner could easily have been negotiated. There was an article in one of the bike mags recently about just this scenario with quotes from the Yorkshire Motorcycle Police including an incident relating to three riders in convoy. The first and last made the corner successfully, the second braked and ran wide hitting road furniture which cost him his life. The police investigation showed that the bike concerned was easily capable of taking the corner at significantly higher speeds than the surviving members of the convoy claimed to be travelling at.

It is therefor important that an associate, (for those not involved with IAM this is the term applied to someone who has not yet achieved advanced standard and hence full membership of the IAM) be able to demonstrate to an observer the ability to make reasonable progress and to ride their machine to a high standard. If they teeter and wobble around a corner in the dry and have 5cm "chicken strips" on each side of their tyres they are unlikely to possess the skills and ability required to pass an advanced test.

Making progress though isn't about all out speed and every overtake remotely possible, just demonstrating that when you are of a mind to do so you can ride close to the limits in terms of the bike, your skills and traffic regulations in safety.

In recent weeks I have observed two hugely different riders:

1) a young rider (20's) who has been racing since he was 6 and could certainly out-ride me with ease, ( I had enough trouble keeping up with him on his single cylinder supermoto on country lanes), but his speed control was poor and his observation of other road users poor. Two weeks later he told me that he believed that he was alive and uninjured as a direct result of my observations. He had spotted a car that hadn't seen him and was able to avoid it. That felt good for me, giving forward is the reason for my becoming an observer.

2) a rider probably in his early thirties with very limited skills on a 600 super sports bike. He admitted that he frequently ran wide in corners including crossing the white line and consistently braked into and through corners. I was worried that I was going to end up scraping him off the road! In fact I started to think that his riding was a wind-up until I looked at his tyres.

Very different situations but both of them will benefit, indeed already have, from advanced training.

To be safe you have to have the necessary skills and for an observer to appreciate your skills you have to demonstrate them so although IAM is all about safety you need to be able to "make progress" where appropriate on observed rides. It can also be a lot of fun

 

[Navy Boy]

Good to see this being discussed/debated.

During my test I slowed to 30 for a recently introduced 30 limit (Used to be a 40 and leads from a national limit). At the wash-up at the end of the test the chap asked me why I'd done 30 through there when I could have been doing 40.

I pointed out that it was now a 30 (Fair enough he hadn't been through there since the limit had been changed) and he apologised!

Whilst it was a bit nerve wracking (The test that is) it was good to see that the chap was human after all and the whole thing was conducted in a constructive manner.

I too believe that it isn't always right to be worrying about making progress. If you want to go at the speed of the car/truck/bike in front of you then why not? After all isn't the point of riding your bike feeling better at the other end than when you started? If that means pottering along at 50-60 when out riding with my wife on her Harley then surely that's just as valid.

At the end of the day its all about your attitude whilst on your machine. Are you enjoying it and thinking about what you are doing - Which usually has the knock-on effect of making you a safer rider into the bargain - And thereby gaining more from it?

I used to race Moto-X and enduro when I was younger and have always thought of myself as being a capable (Not fantastic but capable of holding my own) rider. However the IAM training made me think about things outside the immediate area of riding my bike.

Above all enjoy it. It's still better than driving around in your tin cage.

 

[bubbles]

I know exactly where you are coming from Nate and have been following this with interest. Packers last paragraph I think hits the nail on the head. But if we help people to ride with courtesy and consideration for all other types of road users, and to analysis during and after our ride the effect of what we have been doing on others and ourselves, then I like to think we have achieved something. As those who do not already know will have guessed, I too am a I.A.M. observer.

 

[KTMmartin]

Well the IAM car chapter seems to teach old ladies how to drive once their old man's popped off. I tried them on four wheels, and the observation training is a useful skill, however it's all a bit of a farse as they won't help out how to safely exceed the speed limit. That's my experience of my local group...

It seems the bike groups for both IAM and ROSPA take a slightly more realistic view, but I'll be going ROSPA when I have the time because it's more of an achievement than IAM, in my opinion.

 

[Boxerboy55]

An emotive subject indeed

. . . . . There are no rules of what is right, wrong, best, good nor bad. It's about thinking, thinking, and then thinking.

. . . . So it comes back to the first bit, about can you justify what you are doing. . . . .

From all the interesting comments above, I think this summarises what we should be doing out there.

I passed IAM on 4 wheels, but have many issues with their stance on several things. Will consider ROSPA when I have time as I'll admit to letting things slip too.

I'm no road racer, but with a clean licence and only 2 no-blame write off shunts under my belt in 30+ years I think I've demonstrated an ability to Plan Ahead, Drive Safely, Smoothly, Defensively and also Drive Assertively when needed. And none of that means driving Slowly. I taught my kids that there's a Time and Place for everything, but 2 of them have paid the price (points) for not being as observant as their old man. One has 2 wheels as well so that makes me nervous too.

I'm using 4 wheels outside UK at present where the ground rules are totally different; you wouldn't believe how differently you have to behave when other road users are NOT behaving the way you are accustomed.

Safe Motoring

 

[Gabby]

The bottom line is you’re not taught anything with the IAM...your coached into being a better rider than you were when you started. They have a system of riding that you are encouraged to learn and develop. You’re given a bunch of tools and you use what fits you, the conditions and your bike.
Progress is each to his own and as each "associate" gets familiar with a riding system better progress comes naturally.
Failing a test for not being “progressive” is unlikely. I suspect the fail was “indecision” which manifested itself in low progress and pauses which is common in people not quite to IAM standard. Being over cautious as Observation and planning skills are not up to speed.
As an IAM Observer I meet all sorts from Harley Riders, Vintage machines and Superbikes. Recently sent a guy for his test on a Royal Enfield who never went over 55mph while he was with me...he passed.
Good progress matches the situation, conditions and the bike.
Don’t get hung up on details is all I can recommend...get out there and practice riding well to a good standard.