R1300 / 1250 rear lights observation

[Clifton]

I took my bike in for its first service yesterday and a couple friends rode along, Bob on a 2024 1300GS to exchange his Vario Panniers, and Jim on his R1250GS just to ride along. It was a bit over 2 hours to ride there with Bob leading, Jim behind, and me at the rear. Over those 2 hours, even though the 1250 was closer, I couldn't help but notice how much more visible and effective the R1300's rear lights built into the signal stalks were over the conventional centre tail brake combo with turn lights out to the side on Jim's R1250.

In tail light function the 2 red lights on the 1300 were simply more noticeable and quite a bit brighter than the 1250's single tail light.

Same when braking, the separate lights intensified quite brightly and being 16" or so apart really got my attention. The 1250's modest tail light certainly brightened under braking but it was only one light and not close to the same intensity.

For turn signal when the 1300's bright red left light cycled on and off while the right remained steady bright red really made it obvious the bike was going to turn left. Somehow more so then the 1250's red centre light on and amber left light blinking. I was quite surprised by this in fact I had been looking into adding a centre tail/brake light but not any longer.

 

[RallyeGS]

Totally agree. A non issue made into an issue.

 

[gateway77]

It's a good observation. Many thanks for sharing.

Do you think that based on your location you are more used to seeing rear lights working in that manner.
Obviously here in Europe and in the UK, seeing a turn signal light (always amber) act as a brake light too seems odd to many.

Having driven many miles in the US I know it took me some time to get used to what you guys take for normal.

(As an aside I haven't had any friends comment that they don't know when I'm braking or turning on the normal 1300 set up, so I assume it's fine.)

 

[Clifton]

Gateway TBH I never pay attention if signals are red or amber, either get the intent across. Same for single centre light for tail and brake function or the way BMW has them on the 1300, I just can't recall paying attention, both ways work.
But that I had heard 1300's aren't very visible from behind I had considered looking into an additional brake module. (I'm far less worried about being rear ended than a frontal collision though.)

When Bob and Jim said they wanted to ride along I said great lead on, more the merrier! As we took off I immediately saw the difference in tail light intensity then started paying attention. Braking for the entrance ramp Bob's bike's brake lights were quite a bit brighter. As we motored along the Interstate Bob and Jim signaled as they changed lanes every pass. Again Bob's intent was more noticeable with the single bright flashing red light on the turn side with the solid red light on the other.

Anyway after watching that I have absolutely no concern with the 1300's rear lights, if anything Jim needs to make his 1250 more visible.

 

[TaskMule]

The 1250 and earlier single centre tail light was never very bright. As for the 1300, the North American system is quite good. The UK and possibly Euro system with the amber turn sig was a bit less noticeable in certain situations.

 

[KJB]

The 1250 and earlier single centre tail light was never very bright. As for the 1300, the North American system is quite good. The UK and possibly Euro system with the amber turn sig was a bit less noticeable in certain situations.

I have a number of fellow rider friends with 1250’s and I now have a 1300GS the consensus of us all is the current lighting set at the rear is positively dangerous more especially in bright sunlight. Confusion when indicating and breaking is dangerous, I have fitted the Denali B6 to help and when funds allow will be getting James at Shiny Side Up to fit the new dongle that removes the current set up and adds a second brake. We all spend bloody thousands on these bikes and in certain cases they are not fit for purpose

 

[Clifton]

I didn't realize the lights were different for Europe, I thought we finally got the same lighting. So the difference is yours are red for tail and brake but the one activated for turn signal glows amber? I can't imagine the colour would make much difference, the car following clearly sees you're slowing to make a turn, what confuses them? It's not the fact it's two separate lights further apart because they appear more noticeable than 2 closer lights in the form of one amber signal for turn with the other light closer in they centre for brake. All I can say is when there's the opportunity, follow a 1300 and 1250 or other similar light setup.
To be fair I only observed during daylight but if anything I'd think the conspicuity would be more so at night?

 

[trebor]

I didn't realize the lights were different for Europe, I thought we finally got the same lighting. So the difference is yours are red for tail and brake but the one activated for turn signal glows amber? I can't imagine the colour would make much difference, the car following clearly sees you're slowing to make a turn, what confuses them? It's not the fact it's two separate lights further apart because they appear more noticeable than 2 closer lights in the form of one amber signal for turn with the other light closer in they centre for brake. All I can say is when there's the opportunity, follow a 1300 and 1250 or other similar light setup.
To be fair I only observed during daylight but if anything I'd think the conspicuity would be more so at night?

The perceived problem over here is that if the brake lights are on the flashing amber can hardly be seen, the red brake light bleeds it out.

Ok, there is an issue in that if a bike with this lighting arrangement doesn't indicate until after they've started braking, the vehicle behind doesn't know why it's braking, which can be frustrating, but is this dangerous?

IMHO, no. The most important signal of the two is the brake light, showing the vehicle is slowing down.

OK, so the vehicle behind may not know why the bike is slowing down because they may not have seen, or be able to see the indicator flashing. Granted, this can be annoying when one sees a vehicle suddenly brake for no apparent reason, but the vehicle behind should have got the message that the bike is slowing down and should start slowing down themselves. If they don't and they run into the back of the bike then it is highly likely this would have happened whether the Indicator could be seen or not.

Cars can also have the same issue. For example, one of the earlier models of the VW Golf has the rear indicators surrounded by a red brake light. If the driver brakes before indicating then the indicator is almost completely washed out by the brake light.

I was always taught that you should indicate well before you start to slow down, assuming the vehicle behind is paying attention, this should solve the issue of not seeing the indicator.
(Besides, I remember a Policeman on a BikeSafe course telling the group that the only sure information that the turn indicators give you is that the bulbs (or nowadays the LEDs) are working!)

 

[RichardD]

I was always taught that you should indicate well before you start to slow down, assuming the vehicle behind is paying attention, this should solve the issue of not seeing the indicator.

The "assuming" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. In my opinion, the risk is simple. Right turn signal on, move to the right of the lane, apply brakes. Driver behind does not see indicator as it is washed out, but instead sees only a bike slowing down. Car overtakes as bike is turning right. Not good.

The Weiser/B6 solution overcomes this potential risk and in no way makes the situation "less safe". To me, that makes it worthwhile. Does it make it better/worse than the older 1250 setup? Who knows...

 

[trebor]

The "assuming" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. In my opinion, the risk is simple. Right turn signal on, move to the right of the lane, apply brakes. Driver behind does not see indicator as it is washed out, but instead sees only a bike slowing down. Car overtakes as bike is turning right. Not good.

The Weiser/B6 solution overcomes this potential risk and in no way makes the situation "less safe". To me, that makes it worthwhile. Does it make it better/worse than the older 1250 setup? Who knows...

The 1250 had similar perceived issues as the indicators were also 'dual' use and people were complaining they couldn't see the indicators and fitting units to correct it.
Personally, when turning right, I always make sure the vehicle behind me knows what I'm doing, if they haven't seen my indicator then my positioning should also give them enough information to know what I'm doing.

I have considered fitting a unit such a the Weiser, however, when I last checked, I couldn't find any info on whether these units are authorised to be fitted under the U.K.'s vehicle regs. Do you know if they are?

 

[RichardD]

The 1250 had similar perceived issues as the indicators were also 'dual' use and people were complaining they couldn't see the indicators and fitting units to correct it.
Personally, when turning right, I always make sure the vehicle behind me knows what I'm doing, if they haven't seen my indicator then my positioning should also give them enough information to know what I'm doing.

I have considered fitting a unit such a the Weiser, however, when I last checked, I couldn't find any info on whether these units are authorised to be fitted under the U.K.'s vehicle regs. Do you know if they are?

Yeah, the earlier 1250's had regular lights - a central stop/tail and single function turn signals. The later 1250's (from 2021?) had multi-function indicators but also had a central stop light but no central tail light.

On my 1300 I am using the Weiser turn signal wizards from my 1250. This simply means that the turn signal only acts as a turn signal when signalling, and acts as a stop/tail the rest of the time. It also means that when using hazard lights (both turn signals flashing) there is no visible tail light. This is why (in my setup) I needed to add the additional B6 stop/tail unit.

In this setup, I believe my lights are fully compliant with the UK regulations. MOT inspection rules.

I completely agree with your central point. Your speed and position should inform other road users about your intentions, and obviously, you should always check for following/overtaking vehicles before turning right. However, in my opinion, this light modification just reduces risk a little more, and that can't be a bad thing.

 

[trebor]

In this setup, I believe my lights are fully compliant with the UK regulations. MOT inspection rules.

Do you need to declare this modification to your insurer?
(I would think you need to and it is the one thing that may put me off doing it.)

 

[Clifton]

Am I understanding correctly that the stalks incorporate both red and amber elements? So both stalks glow red for tail light, upon the right signal being activated the right changes to amber and blinks while the left remains solid red, then when brakes are applied the left red element as well as the right red element brighten while in the right stalk the amber is also flashing?

 

[RichardD]

Am I understanding correctly that the stalks incorporate both red and amber elements? So both stalks glow red for tail light, upon the right signal being activated the right changes to amber and blinks while the left remains solid red, then when brakes are applied the left red element as well as the right red element brighten while in the right stalk the amber is also flashing?

Not quite. When the right signal is on, the right unit shows both red and flashing amber. If the brakes are then applied, the red part gets brighter.

Although this video shows a late-model R1250GS, rather than a 1300, you can see the standard set up - and then how it works after the Weisers are installed... I've tried to link it at the relevant part of the video (from 4:47ish)...

 

[Clifton]

Not quite. When the right signal is on, the right unit shows both red and flashing amber. If the brakes are then applied, the red part gets brighter.

Hmmm I see now. Yeah I feel the signal is more obvious with the light flashing on and completely off which is what the module does, yet keeping the turn flasher amber to meet your regulation.
It'd be interesting to follow four bikes; a 1250 with the traditional set up, a 1300 with the stock lights, a 1300 with the module like in the video, and an American spec. As I mentioned I feel our version with one red light brightly illuminated and the other red light flashing on and off indicating turn direction is very eye catching and makes it quite clear what's happening.
Do bikes in all the other European countries have the same arrangement as in UK and just North America is different?

 

[RichardD]

Do bikes in all the other European countries have the same arrangement as in UK and just North America is different?

I'm no expert but I think UK bikes have the same lighting setup as EU bikes. As for the rest of the world, I have no info.,

 

[leadfarmer]

Well I’m guessing they conform to the regulations for each country so they can’t be that bad

In my opinion it’s a non issue, but if folks want to modify their bikes then it’s their choice

I remember Vespas with 6 volt electrics, no indicators and no battery, you could just about tell when the lights were on,
at tickover they would just flicker a bit, the horn pitch was directly dependent on the pulses from the stator so it went up and down with the revs and sounded like a demented duck

 

[Derekjhutton]

It’s a big issue. I had a 1250 with the daft lights and two fellow riders ( a police traffic rider and an hgv driving instructor by occupation) both commented separately that if indicators were in use under braking they were obscured by the brightness of said brake lights. My better half made similar comments. Weiser Wizard cured the problem by reactivating the central brake light and stopping the outer stalks showing red under braking. My 1300GSA has been classed as slightly better but I expect WW to improve it.

 

[J biker]

No surprise. Why would BMW make something less safe?
Thanks for your observations. Confirmation that there is nothing to worry about. Be like the ‘none’ backlit light switches ‘issue’…..

There will always be a company willing to sell parts to ‘fix’ things…