Now you are suggesting that real world speeds over the limit happen, but I see no evidence that ROSPA or IAM equip you for such eventualities. I'm not expecting anyone to put their heads on the block for me or anyone else, but for goodness sake as an organisation don't pretend to be something you aren't.
ROSPA Vs IAM
- Thread starter Rasher
- Start date
I must admit reading the book sounds quite nanny state, and also contradictory when it goes on about acceleration sense and using the correct part of the rev range etc. on most sportsbikes tickover in third is pushing the national limit.
I agree with other comments, it is not really possible to advocate speeding openly, however it can also be difficult to assess a rider of a modern machine at a speed limit set by the standards of the 1950's.
Even a GS feels dog slow at 60mph and with most of the wide open A-Roads near me having 50mph limits I have no idea on how they are going to assess my cornering, though slow speed control is gonna be a peace of piss as riding through Oxfordshire at the speed limit is like doing one of the slow races you did as kids on your bikes.
I agree with other comments, it is not really possible to advocate speeding openly, however it can also be difficult to assess a rider of a modern machine at a speed limit set by the standards of the 1950's.
Even a GS feels dog slow at 60mph and with most of the wide open A-Roads near me having 50mph limits I have no idea on how they are going to assess my cornering, though slow speed control is gonna be a peace of piss as riding through Oxfordshire at the speed limit is like doing one of the slow races you did as kids on your bikes.
Mike Frost
Registered user
Hi Rasher,
Just to let you know, I took my first RoSPA test two weeks back, having been under training, on and off, for a twelvemonth (rain invariably stopped play). As pointed out earlier, pragmatism is the name of the game; the instructors, and examiners are looking for you to make 'progress'. In my experience that translates into covering the ground as expeditiously as possible, while constantly scanning for hazards, factoring them into your ride, being in the right place all the time through planning and executing your ride 'on the go' while at all times having safety as the paramount concern and observing the laws of the land.
Sounds complicated, but in fact once you 'get' it it becomes almost instinctive; I have been riding on and off for 40+ years, and have a dog-eared copy of 'Roadcraft; from my twenties, but a year with RoSPA SMART has raised my ride standard, and made me a safer rider too.
The speeding aspect is to an extent irrelavent, because you are training on real roads under real traffic conditions. I would suggest take a pinch of salt with the commentary on here about riding bikes fast on public roads; we all do it when circumstances and opportunity arise, but the point is that, through learning observation and planning skills you will do it more safely too.
Sorry to ramble on, but its a big canvas - good luck.
Mike
Just to let you know, I took my first RoSPA test two weeks back, having been under training, on and off, for a twelvemonth (rain invariably stopped play). As pointed out earlier, pragmatism is the name of the game; the instructors, and examiners are looking for you to make 'progress'. In my experience that translates into covering the ground as expeditiously as possible, while constantly scanning for hazards, factoring them into your ride, being in the right place all the time through planning and executing your ride 'on the go' while at all times having safety as the paramount concern and observing the laws of the land.
Sounds complicated, but in fact once you 'get' it it becomes almost instinctive; I have been riding on and off for 40+ years, and have a dog-eared copy of 'Roadcraft; from my twenties, but a year with RoSPA SMART has raised my ride standard, and made me a safer rider too.
The speeding aspect is to an extent irrelavent, because you are training on real roads under real traffic conditions. I would suggest take a pinch of salt with the commentary on here about riding bikes fast on public roads; we all do it when circumstances and opportunity arise, but the point is that, through learning observation and planning skills you will do it more safely too.
Sorry to ramble on, but its a big canvas - good luck.
Mike
Jed
Registered user
Hi Rasher,
i signed up with IAM (the one out of Wokingham) a couple of months ago - which one are you using as you are down the road from me ?
I also did the Look Roll Lean course which is run by the IAM and it's really good - although I've only been riding since December so I may have gotten more benefit from the more experienced. That being said the majority of guys and girls on it had been riding a long time and they also said how good it was. So you should have a look at that.
I am also signed up for Advanced Braking in a couple of weeks which should be good fun - aircraft runway - heavy braking - ABS , never experienced ABS on a bike.
rgds
Jed
i signed up with IAM (the one out of Wokingham) a couple of months ago - which one are you using as you are down the road from me ?
I also did the Look Roll Lean course which is run by the IAM and it's really good - although I've only been riding since December so I may have gotten more benefit from the more experienced. That being said the majority of guys and girls on it had been riding a long time and they also said how good it was. So you should have a look at that.
I am also signed up for Advanced Braking in a couple of weeks which should be good fun - aircraft runway - heavy braking - ABS , never experienced ABS on a bike.
rgds
Jed
Why is it that when people think of 'making progress' they only consider overtaking. As someone who trains people for both IAM and RoSPA and provides on-the-road advanced training as well, it never ceases to amaze me how many people can't 'make progress' in queues of traffic or in town.
Its a shame that both IAM and RoSPA tests spend so little time in town. Yes it is very challenging riding in the country and fun, but who rides a bike and never has to go through a town.
As for the speed limit issue I think some people are confusing the views of the individual Observers & Tutors with that of the organization. Just because they say you should ride within the RTA (Road Traffic Act) doesn't mean that all its members comply or agree with that statement.
Its a shame that both IAM and RoSPA tests spend so little time in town. Yes it is very challenging riding in the country and fun, but who rides a bike and never has to go through a town.
As for the speed limit issue I think some people are confusing the views of the individual Observers & Tutors with that of the organization. Just because they say you should ride within the RTA (Road Traffic Act) doesn't mean that all its members comply or agree with that statement.
I can't speak for other Observers, but I dedicate one session to town work. We spend as long as it takes until I'm happy that the Associate can use filtering techniques and use of the lanes correctly to make good, safe progress through town. Once happy they can do it well we move back out on the open road for some fun, returning back to town in a later session to make sure they can still do it.
It seems to work well, I've very rarely had to spend more than half a session on town work.
Bob
Pretty interesting thread - someone mentioned Fun - this is important in any training it helps the associate or candidate absorb more information and whats more retain it - we can all remember our best rides and how they felt "everything just clicked" is the usual comment.
To me it doesn't really matter where the training comes from, if any, who needs training if you are willing to critique your riding? I personally took the IAM route and enjoyed every minute of it but not just for the improved riding - the people and rides were memorable too.
As for speed - well that is still a personal thing and you have to read your observer and eventually your examiner like you would read the road. Its all about hazard perception really. Treat everything like a hazard and have a plan to stay clear, ride around, dispose of, or warn of and you wont go far wrong. Some observers will adhere to speed limits some will allow leniency during certain maneuvers such as an overtake. But you get exactly the same with examiners - but none of them tell you "I want to see you riding beyond the speed limits or beyond your abilities" you are the one riding YOU have to make the choice.
Its your life - is it worth the effort?
It was for me and I feel more confident for it, my riding is more "consistent" now and actually more enjoyable - if I choose to travel at 70 in a 60 zone that's my choice but if I were to be caught then I have to accept it because no one TOLD me to travel at that speed. Basically stop getting hung up on Speed - no one is going to train you to travel at twice the speed limit but for less risk involved.
Rik
To me it doesn't really matter where the training comes from, if any, who needs training if you are willing to critique your riding? I personally took the IAM route and enjoyed every minute of it but not just for the improved riding - the people and rides were memorable too.
As for speed - well that is still a personal thing and you have to read your observer and eventually your examiner like you would read the road. Its all about hazard perception really. Treat everything like a hazard and have a plan to stay clear, ride around, dispose of, or warn of and you wont go far wrong. Some observers will adhere to speed limits some will allow leniency during certain maneuvers such as an overtake. But you get exactly the same with examiners - but none of them tell you "I want to see you riding beyond the speed limits or beyond your abilities" you are the one riding YOU have to make the choice.
Its your life - is it worth the effort?
It was for me and I feel more confident for it, my riding is more "consistent" now and actually more enjoyable - if I choose to travel at 70 in a 60 zone that's my choice but if I were to be caught then I have to accept it because no one TOLD me to travel at that speed. Basically stop getting hung up on Speed - no one is going to train you to travel at twice the speed limit but for less risk involved.
Rik
I find these days speed limits seem less relevant than ever, so often I find myself between two fields with no junctions or turnings (even into said fields) and perfect visibility for hundreds of metres and the limit will be 50mph (or less) then you will come to a turning heading down a single track lane and the law reckons 60mph is good.
It makes no sense to do 50mph on a wide open straight piece of well surfaced road with excellent visibility and then to turn onto a single track lane that is bumpy, gravel strewn with no visiblity and ride at 60mph, knowing that in effect I may as well be doing 120 on another road as that is my closing speed on any vehicles coming the other way at the speed limit.
Many B-Roads and Unclassified roads also have entire villages where the limit is 60, so legally you can blat past the School at home time travelling at 30 metres per second, yet many armco lined dual carriageways now have lower limits.
I have no respect for the fuckwits that set these limits, and total contempt for many of the limits they have set - both with regard to travelling Faster AND Slower than the posted speed. Once upon a time I did have a lot of respect for 30 and 40 zones - until they starting putting them all over the bloody place and extending them miles into the countryside each side of villages.
Hopefully the IAM will sharpen my observation and kill off some bad habbits, I can then apply those skills regardless of the speed I travel when not being observed - in fact it is this improved observation I hope will allow me to choose a speed that is safe, and not rely on Mr Fuckwits interpretation of safe speed.
It makes no sense to do 50mph on a wide open straight piece of well surfaced road with excellent visibility and then to turn onto a single track lane that is bumpy, gravel strewn with no visiblity and ride at 60mph, knowing that in effect I may as well be doing 120 on another road as that is my closing speed on any vehicles coming the other way at the speed limit.
Many B-Roads and Unclassified roads also have entire villages where the limit is 60, so legally you can blat past the School at home time travelling at 30 metres per second, yet many armco lined dual carriageways now have lower limits.
I have no respect for the fuckwits that set these limits, and total contempt for many of the limits they have set - both with regard to travelling Faster AND Slower than the posted speed. Once upon a time I did have a lot of respect for 30 and 40 zones - until they starting putting them all over the bloody place and extending them miles into the countryside each side of villages.
Hopefully the IAM will sharpen my observation and kill off some bad habbits, I can then apply those skills regardless of the speed I travel when not being observed - in fact it is this improved observation I hope will allow me to choose a speed that is safe, and not rely on Mr Fuckwits interpretation of safe speed.
when I was an IAM associate my self and one or two others felt under constant pressure to ride faster, particularly in national speed limit areas. At the time I went along with it while internally thinking - my personal speed appetite after decades of car driving is safer than what is being suggested. 12 months on I can see the point entirely in pushing you to improve your machine control so that now I am safer and more confident at higher speeds than before IAM. It has taken time and effort after passing the test - the learning goes on. I also raised the issue with the cop who tested me an he made the point that plenty of young riders will go fast in any case so better to engage them in how to ride fast and as safe as poss. my point in all this is that with an open mind your perspective can change over time with advanced training. A lot of very experienced riders have put the ideas together and scepticism, concealed or otherwise, is a barrier to getting the most out of it.
Well, taking the plunge tomorrow with Browny under the instruction/direction of a well respected 'biker - Mr Jim Bryan (Boring Old Fart to those who know him
)
Two days training (in the pishing rain by the look of things) wih an overnight in Moffat.
Hastily reading through the Roadcraft book and realising there's a lot of terms my grey matter will have to do battle with
Will keep you posted and see what RoSPA has to offer in the near future
Boring Old Fart:
http://enhancedriding.com/page/gallery
)Two days training (in the pishing rain by the look of things) wih an overnight in Moffat.
Hastily reading through the Roadcraft book and realising there's a lot of terms my grey matter will have to do battle with
Will keep you posted and see what RoSPA has to offer in the near future
Boring Old Fart:
http://enhancedriding.com/page/gallery
Well, taking the plunge tomorrow with Browny under the instruction/direction of a well respected 'biker - Mr Jim Bryan (Boring Old Fart to those who know him
Two days training (in the pishing rain by the look of things) wih an overnight in Moffat.
Hastily reading through the Roadcraft book and realising there's a lot of terms my grey matter will have to do battle with
Will keep you posted and see what RoSPA has to offer in the near future
Boring Old Fart:
http://enhancedriding.com/page/gallery
I'm quite sure you'll have a great time with the BOF, you will enjoy it, and you'll be much the better for it
Keep us posted ... we wait with baited breath
Apologies for the delay boys 'n girls - been pre-occupied
Anyway, application is now in the system so waiting for the call.
What can I say, 2 x great days in the company of el Maestro and Kev - 'intimate' company should I say
Now, Kev kept on about me 'coming out' over the last few days - below is photographic evidence of Jim and Kev and a H U G E cock...(Please note who, in accordance with RoSPA acronyms for various definitions, is the 'Taker' and the 'Giver' - comes under T.U.G. (Take/Use/Give) within IPSGA (Information/Position/Speed/Gear/Accelarate) - it's all in Roadcraft.
Some pics...
Pic 1 - Jim with all his gadgets and his rather pretty new Duke...
Pic 2 - Jim told us he'd have us going into the bends sideways so, never wishing to miss an advertising opportunity and so as everyone following could read Kev's back ...
Anyway, application is now in the system so waiting for the call.
What can I say, 2 x great days in the company of el Maestro and Kev - 'intimate' company should I say
Now, Kev kept on about me 'coming out' over the last few days - below is photographic evidence of Jim and Kev and a H U G E cock...(Please note who, in accordance with RoSPA acronyms for various definitions, is the 'Taker' and the 'Giver' - comes under T.U.G. (Take/Use/Give) within IPSGA (Information/Position/Speed/Gear/Accelarate) - it's all in Roadcraft.
Some pics...
Pic 1 - Jim with all his gadgets and his rather pretty new Duke...
Pic 2 - Jim told us he'd have us going into the bends sideways so, never wishing to miss an advertising opportunity and so as everyone following could read Kev's back ...
Attachments
Opted for a rather nice group pic at Megget Res - by the time I'd set the camera on a rock and rushed to catch the click Kev had decided to look (or was that 'leak') the other way - there's a theme running here donchathink?
Pic 5 ... Us
Pic 6 ...Kev getting feedback
Pic 5 ... Us
Pic 6 ...Kev getting feedback
Attachments
As stated - 2 x great days in the best of company eradicating some of those dirty, filthy habits I seem to have acquired.
Slowed me down, made me read the road with much more anticipation realising you can manage to overtake safely and within the speed limits and made me realise I definately need to put a bit more air between me and the car in front.
Jim is indeed an exceptional rider in his own right and, running hand in hand with that, is his ability to coach in a manner the mature student desires (even an eeejit like me!)
He also introduced us to The Buccleuch Arms Hotel in Moffat and it's warmth, excellent food, ale, whiskey and an incredibly warm, welcoming hospitable staff
www.buccleucharmshotel.com
Thanks again Jim - hope I come up to scratch on the day
Slowed me down, made me read the road with much more anticipation realising you can manage to overtake safely and within the speed limits and made me realise I definately need to put a bit more air between me and the car in front.
Jim is indeed an exceptional rider in his own right and, running hand in hand with that, is his ability to coach in a manner the mature student desires (even an eeejit like me!)
He also introduced us to The Buccleuch Arms Hotel in Moffat and it's warmth, excellent food, ale, whiskey and an incredibly warm, welcoming hospitable staff
www.buccleucharmshotel.com
Thanks again Jim - hope I come up to scratch on the day
Managed a 'comfortable silver' with the nice man from RoSPA today - would have been better had my knowledge of the Highway Code (and a few minor issues on the road) been better. Chuffed with the result and inspired to want to go back again for the Gold.
Highly recommended to all as it puts your riding into perspective - the system is spot on even if it's a rigid speed limit test.
Go on boys 'n girls - have a look at it - if this wrinkley can get Silver just imagine what you can do!
Highly recommended to all as it puts your riding into perspective - the system is spot on even if it's a rigid speed limit test.
Go on boys 'n girls - have a look at it - if this wrinkley can get Silver just imagine what you can do!
Well done Sunny Jim
Stonker
Registered user
I passed my IAM green badge in 1979 and was a founder member of my local group. I was myself feeling a bit of a fraud having maintained my IAM membership this year but not doing anything to re-assess my riding or keeping my standard up. I contacted the chief observer reacently and he's taking me out on staurday to 'sharpen my axe'. Should be interesting
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