straight questions / straight answers

[Ogmios]

this is for anyone who's considered Rider Training in any shape or form.​

background first;
i've been involved in Rider Training for about 17 years. got into it for two reasons - one was to put a bit back into biking as a kinda thank you, i suppose to all the "Elder Lemons" that guided and mentored me when i was young and foolish(er) than i am now.

The second reason is that i felt and noted from my work with MAG (Ireland) that unless we took responsibility for ourselves and our safety that some fool bureaucrat in an office with no idea about biking would do it for us

So, i got involved, took training myself, became a Trainer, took more training etc. etc. (full c.v. available upon request)

now i have some idea about training, the options out there and the validity of same.

why am i posting this?
Well.... it seems to me that after all is said and done - theres a hell of a lot more said than done.

the title of this thread Straight questions / straight answers is because i am of the opinion (yes, like bums - we've all got one) that there is a lot of waffle talked about training.

the aim of this and i hope any future posts i make about training is to demystify the topic.
ask me a straight blunt question and i will try to give an answer equally straight and probably blunt too.

my only motivation is to enable people to see the point of taking training, what it actually entales, the benefits of it and to show that it's not all dayglo and headlamps on, pipe and slippers, pedantic pontificating, holier than thou self righteous boll....

...whaddya mean i got issues?!

bottom line coming up;
my own riding has got better as i get older.
~ i get more ride out of less bike.
~ i got more stamina, more focus, more confidence, more competence, and a clearer realistic self assessment of my ride. a yardstick by which to gauge how well i'm doing on any given day.

NO one out there rides "perfectly" (whatever that means - definitions vary!)100% of the time. but after taking training i know when i am riding well and when i'm not.
This in itself is the best safety device / protective gear i've ever had.
it's between my ears, i never forget to put it on and it dont wear out (so far) and doesn't get sold on when i change bikes.

here it finally comes....
The Bottom Line.
This Advanced Stuff Really Works!
and ANYone can do it. you dont have to be a riding god, on the latest and greatest flavour of the month bike.

you DO have to be capable of paying attention, accepting criticism and learning new ways of doing the same old stuff.

oh - and if you are doing it right....it's Fun too!

many say they've "done training" - but it's only of value if you take it to the logical conclusion and do a test at the end, otherwise its like saying "yeah, i went to university.....never did the exams and got the degree...but i went to Uni"...
what is the point?
no matter if it's Ro.S.P.A. (my own direction) or I.A.M. or (for the Irish among us) an Insurance company Skills Assessment or a Bikesafe assessment.
whatever it is - if i can get you interested or assist (and a thread on here costs nothing) - let me know.

if i can help with practical onroad training - let me know offline - but the main point of this post is not an advert for training, but a thread to get the topic into the open and get it discussed, with i hope, blunt replies to straight questions - no bull, no waffle and no judgements.

~~
Og / Marc.
RoSPA DIP.
RoSPA Gold.
(Star Rider Scheme) Senior Local Training Officer Fingal County Council, Dublin.
Founder member / former Head of Training I.R.T.A.
Rep for Ireland on the E.U. funded "Initial Rider Training Project".
MAG Irl. Training Rep. / National Executive member.

 

[Coolcarbon]

All for it, the more the merrier...or should that better.

You're never to Old or Good to learn a new trick or two...

 

[gopher]

and ANYone can do it. you dont have to be a riding god, on the latest and greatest flavour of the month bike.

Hope so - I'm certainly no natural!

 

[Packer]

Have passed the IAM advanced rider test and currently practising as an observer.

I expect to be a qualified observer within a few months and enjoy putting something back in.

It's so rewarding when you identify an issue, offer a suggestion and then have an associate come back next week with a big grin on his/her face because it led to a noticable benefit.

 

[MMC]

Hope so - I'm certainly no natural!

Ah - you and me neither! Cap'n Vertical - that's me. Lean in a corner?? You've got to be joking - I might die.

Funny thing is, I love riding, get out on the bike almost everyday (and certainly as main transport) but I never seem to get any better. RoSPA Gold and an IAM Senior Observer in the car - bag of shite on a bike.

 

[Droopy Dick]

It's so rewarding when you identify an issue, offer a suggestion and then have an associate come back next week with a big grin on his/her face because it led to a noticable benefit.

Ah yes.

The old IAM 'we don't instruct issue'.

Make suggestions rather than give clear instructions..

I know the IAM are worried about insurance issues in the event of some sort of accident, but I think it wouldn't take very long in a Court for 'observing' to be seen as 'instructing'.

But the essence of the 1st post is right.

No-one rides 100% all the time, but hopefully after training and repeated and continual practice, the errors become fewer and fewer, and of a lesser magnitude.

I've found that I can great fun when riding very demanding roads at the best possible speed and on a good line. Indeed, I do this regularly with a few pals, and we seldom get over 65mph.

But when you've just ridden a taxing 11 mile road and it's all come together for you, the feeling of satisfaction is immense.

And, at the end of the day, the only reason why insurance companies give discounts for advanced training is because those riders tend to have fewer accidents.

It would be great if we could get more teen and 20s involved, rather than mid30s upwards.

 

[Coolcarbon]

I've found that I can great fun when riding very demanding roads at the best possible speed and on a good line. Indeed, I do this regularly with a few pals, and we seldom get over 65mph.

My ethos exactly...

As my mate 'Shinnyface' (who happens to be the holder of two of the most sought after certificates in this land amongst many others) says to those that shoot off on the straights at mega speeds, " Aye, we'll be seeing you in the twisties then"...: and we do

 

[Ogmios]

Hope so - I'm certainly no natural!

the only difference between you and me is...

Practice

taking in "The System" and then practice.

Packers post;
It's so rewarding when you identify an issue, offer a suggestion and then have an associate come back next week with a big grin on his/her face because it led to a noticable benefit.
is dead on it's a real buzz passing that on to someone - i know they feel good - and me too!

MMC,
aww no! thats a PITA - i reckon (only my opinion from a distance but) you just need the right Observer / Trainer (call them what you will - i'm sticking strictly on topic in this section) taking a look at you in action to see how to how to cure that - coz your other qualifications prove you are well able for the task.
...hmmm... leaning/corners.... i have a couple of ideas actually - but tricky to get across (at this time of night anyhow).
maybe tomorrow

Droopy/ CoolCarbon,
nicely put.
to anyone reading this and cant see what we're getting at.....
lookit;
i'm in Ireland.
where's the place, the point and the challenge in me going fast in a straight line


take some of our more "technical" sections of back road and keeping up to 65mph is ... fun.
one of the best runs i've done in ages was following a certain Seriously Good Airhead Rider back from the Donegal Run To The Hills in Spring. his gps set to; no main roads, no big towns, certainly no dual carriageway and no motorway. suffice to say a low top speed and a high average was maintained.
Boy was THAT a satisfying run!

this is one aspect of Training.
there any many others.
hmmm...time for bed - before i get just tooo Zen

Nighty night all.

 

[Fanum]

Top thread Og

Now.....I'm a crap rider, can you fix me??

 

[(RIP) night trunker]

To add to the excellent thread of Ogmios my experiance of taking advanced training was the best thing i have ever done concerning motorcycling.
I will be 60 in two weeks and have had bikes from being 16years old,past my test in 1963,never had any training just bought the bike and away i went.
At the age of 54 i decieded to do the I.A.M. test with the Manchester 500 advanced motorcycle club,from which i can honestly say i learnt more in three months from the observed runs and taking and passing the test than i had in the previous 30 odd years.
The added pleasure i now get from riding i can not begin to describe to repeat what Ogimos is saying do it you will get so much pleasure from it and it makes you a safer rider.
Night Trunker.

 

[Flipfly]

Good thread fella.

Best rider I ever met called himself a manufactured rider. Joined the police, had never ridden a bike and had no idea of how they worked or the physics involved.
He eventually became a police advanced instructor and having had a day out with him I can only say it was enlightening and the guy is awesome. he was smooo.......oooooth in everything he did with the bike.

The thing that stops alot of people is the thought of

a) someone telling them what to do (afterall most people don't like to admit that they're not really that good

b) the thought of tests and exams

A good example of a) was a father that sent his young son off to get some training. Said that the son needed to learn but he'd tag along, he new how to ride and was just there to see how the lad did. The instructor actually said that the lad was good, but the father was terrible even though he'd been riding 30 years.

As for b), well you don't have to take the advanced course all the way through to gaining the qualification to get something from it.

I'm all for training, and it's good to take a refresher from time to time and have someone folllow you to pick up on the things that you still don't get right.

Knowing your mistakes and trying to put them right is, as you rightly say, probably the best bit of safety kit you'll ever have.

 

[Ogmios]

Top thread Og

Now.....I'm a crap rider, can you fix me??

Thanks Fanum
now - i can "fix" anyone with a pair of functioning ears - thats all thats needed - the ability to listen, but somehow i doubt yer that bad...

actually, one thing i've noted over the years is that anyone that says they have issues with their standard of riding inevitably turns out to be or become Good Riders.
it's the blokes that think they've nothing to learn that worry me

a minor caution folks;
all the posts so far are from people that have either taken training or will take training.
the way we the converted approach this entire topic can (sadly) put people off.

i often call the first training session Chapter One; Revelations because it so often is - a revelation to the uninitiated! a joy to see the light and find a path.
all sounds a bit like religion?
well - thats my point exactly;
if ya come over too zealous / it can be offputting and defeats the objective.


the best reminder / slap in the face for me on that score is training a younger rider or an old fart, often when on a course i do for our local council, that has been persuaded that they need training - normally by their loved ones.

it puts manners on me and keeps me sharp as i have to work harder, keep to the point and most of all Keep It Real!
keep what i talking about directly applicable to Real World conditions. not an ideal textbook theoretical utopia.

it's healthy. stops me disappearing up me own sphincter and often i am the one learning - learning new ways of getting the message across to yet another mindset not quite ready to accept the validity of the message.

oh FFS... i do go on.


got to go.
stuff to do.
~~

 

[Flipfly]

a minor caution folks;
all the posts so far are from people that have either taken training or will take training.
the way we the converted approach this entire topic can (sadly) put people off.

That's why I mention the not having to take a test. I'm not a qualified advanced rider, but I strive to be as good as one.

I don't like tests and I don't really care about a piece of paper telling me that someone thinks I can ride well. All I care about is my own enjoyment and my own safety and those around me.

I guess I'm a prime example of how ya ordinary bloke can get something out of it without going the whole hog. Most people also assume that they will be taught how to ride safely at 60mph and this doesn't relate to real world riding. The principles are the same whatever the speed, and Bill Ward who I trained with said he was happy for the speed to increase (within reason) once the basic principles had been understood and put into practice.

I know many a sportsbike rider thats been upset by trained rider on much lesser machinery, whilst doing it more safely.

 

[Mountain Ash]

Advanced Training

Hi folks,

Great thread - training replaces instinct, eh !

Anyone suggest any trainers in the Lancashire / Gtr Manchester / Skiton areas?

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