Suspension / tyres?

[(RIP) Jamie]

I dunno, can't figure it out.

Since I've had the Tourances fitted, the bikes been handling oddly (1100).

Sometimes its as if its on rails, other times its dead twitchy, other times wallowy, as if you need to pull it in when going round a bend.

I've checked pressures, OK

The rear spring SEEMS OK, it wouldn't suddenly go would it?

And I know that the wheel bearings are adjusted out, but a wiggle of the rear wheel in all positions doesn't even give a millimetre. I'll be changing them soon anyway.

So what could it be? Do Tourances take a while to warm up, and come on? I never had this with me Pirelli's.

It's not a major problem, more a niggle.

On the Peaks run out last month I was riding like I stole it just to keep up, and it handled fine, yet coming from work tonight, it seemed, just odd?

I've fiddled with preload and tension, may be better tomorrow.

Any ideas?

 

[Deadskin]

My old rear shock was fine when cold but after 20 minutes riding
it was a nightmare

something to do with the oil + damping properties

 

[The Mechanic]

Me to!

Had exactly the same type of experience with my old Transalp when I changed from some old and perished Dunlop trail tyres to Tourances. I was expecting much more feedback from the tyres, but what I actually got was a very vague sensation so I experimented with tyre pressures and no real improvement.

To explain the vagueness further when going into a corner it felt as though you couldn't rely on the front staying planted. As for the rear the same could be said. The bike was ok in a straight line and at reasonably (for a Transalp) high speeds 80-95 mph.

The tyres were not old stock and were fitted correctly by an expert ( not by me then), so I was toying with ditching them and having some Bridgestones instead....unfortunately some low life nicked the bike.. The Pegaso is shod with Pirelli Scorpions which give loads of feel and feedback except in the wet on overbanding and white lines.......otherwise in the wet they are fine.

Question, have you had the wheels balanced?...I expect you have but I ask any way.

Tourances have different ratings on them for different applications check these against the makers specs. The web site was very helpful when I was trying to resolve the problem. Google and then Metzeler should do it, can't remember the actual web address.

Hope you get it sorted Jamie. By way they will take a while to 'run - in' and settle down, perhaps its too soon to expect the levels of confidence that you had with the Pirellis.

They fit Tourances on the Aprilia Caponord ( I'm considering a 2004 model to replace the B*W.....yes I know about Aprilia's little £147,000,000 problem) so the tyres must suite some bikes just not yours or mine mate.

 

[DavidHolmes]

I've had about 7 sets of Tourances before. All fantastic. Put some TKC 80's on for a little bit of offroading. Got a new set of Tourances 2 weeks ago, went back immediately, the bike was all over the place. Fitted an old part worn Tourance to the front, handled great. Assumed I had had a dodgy front, got a new one (different batch to the first one). Its OK. But only barely.

Rang my dealer (to check bike over in case I had damaged wheel bearings, ball joint, something, anything, whilst offroading). Described the symptoms: basically feels sloppy and loose at the front, like the wheel is actually loose, or the handlebars are connected by sponges to the 'yokes'. This is very bad at slow speeds, but almost unnoticable above 60.

Dealer booked bike in for a checkover, but said, 'We have stopped fitting Tourances and have gone over to the Enduro 4's'

Still dont know for sure its the tyre, but it was perfect with the old part worn one, so currently I'm thinking that Metzler's quality control has slipped.

As to the shock, it can go suddenly, my shock (1150GS) burst a seal and dumped its oil all over the exhaust.

 

[(RIP) Jamie]

Thanks for your replies.

Tony:

Yes the wheels were balanced. But I've done at least 400 miles on them since fitted, especially after the runout, so surely must be scrubbed by now, you think it takes longer to maybe Bed in or something?

I found the Pirellis great in the wet - odd that?

Galoshes:

I may be suffering the opposite, short journeys iffey, longer runs the better.

David:

Shock seems fine, certainly no leakage or anything shocking. I'll fettle till I'm happy. Maybe it is the tyres.

Perhaps they need to warm up before they work to optimum.

Thanks again

Jamie

 

[Deadskin]

Galoshes ere

I had a tourance on the front changed it for an enduro 4 (old type)
now been discontinued.
New enduro 4 made because the honda vala wotsit handled
crap on tourances

 

[The Mechanic]

Jamie...Mechanic here....

Just looked at the Metzeler web site and these are what you should have on your 1100 (they are the same for the 1150 also):

Tourance 110/80 R19 59H TL inflation pressure 2.50 bar

Tourance 150/70 R17 69H TL '' '' 2.90 bar

Have you adjusted the rear damper settings to throw a bit more weight onto the front? This may give the desired result of more feel from the front end, but it may also be as has been suggested, Metzeler's quality is suspect and the tyres now no longer suit the 11/1150.....que the irate members who swear by these tyres.

Sorry I can't be more help

 

[DavidHolmes]

Re: Jamie...Mechanic here....

Just looked at the Metzeler web site and these are what you should have on your 1100 (they are the same for the 1150 also):

Tourance 110/80 R19 59H TL inflation pressure 2.50 bar

Tourance 150/70 R17 69H TL '' '' 2.90 bar

Sorry I can't be more help

Interestingly enough, the Service and Technical Booklet that was supplied (OE) with my 1150 (which came with OE Tourances) quotes the following pressures for solo riding:

Front 2.20 Bar
Rear 2.50 Bar

It doesnt recommend 2.50/2.90 unless riding Two up with luggage.

 

[Paul Wakefield]

It doesnt recommend 2.50/2.90 unless riding Two up with luggage.

Both of my last 2 dealers have recommended 36/42 psi (which without checking I think is the same as 2.50/2.90) even when riding solo. I've noticed the handling can get quite sloppy if the pressures drop by more than about 2/3lbs from this.

Paul

 

[Paul Wakefield]

Sorry - that should be 2 to 3 psi not two thirds!

Paul

 

[Corium]

Similar Problem

You make no mention about the age or mileage of your 1100.

Back at 48k (8 years) mine went all funny. Sometimes ok & then like riding a wet sponge on a jelly. Also had a bad vibration at 80mph on the clock.

This problem only became noticable after fitting new tyres. The old ones had obviously worn to be in harmonic sympathy with the damping of the bad shocks. Also worn tyres have less weight for the shocks to damp (unsprung weight and all that)

After doing all the obvious & cheap things settled for new shocks front and back. Problem sorted but wallet left considerably lighter.

Good Luck.

 

[DavidHolmes]

Re: It doesnt recommend 2.50/2.90 unless riding Two up with luggage.

Both of my last 2 dealers have recommended 36/42 psi (which without checking I think is the same as 2.50/2.90) even when riding solo. I've noticed the handling can get quite sloppy if the pressures drop by more than about 2/3lbs from this.

Paul

Like I said, have had 8 previous sets (I know I said 7, but actually it is at least 8, probably 9) - done 60k on them. Everything from fast solo work, to two up fully laden touring. Have maintained the BMW recommended pressures religiously. But for the record, upping the pressure to the Metzler recommended pressure was the first thing the tyre fitter did when I complained about the handling. And it made things infinitely worse. And that was with the tyres stone cold.

I also hope my woes are not rear shock related, as I am running an Ohlins (less than one year and 20k old).

 

[littleredrooster]

Tourances: 33 psi front, 38 rear; solo - no luggage. 36/42 fully laden. Superb handling, give them 5 miles to warm up, though!

Funny you should mention strange feel from the front, though - I had a new front fitted 2000+ miles back and the feeling at low speed is that of shagged head-bearings - wandering about a bit at up to 30 mph. Checks revealed nowt, re-fitting and re-balancing did nowt , either, so I ignore it. High speed handling is still OK.

 

[(RIP) Kaister]

I noticed exactly the same weird feelings from the front when i fitted a brand new tourance to the front.

Cured it by DROPPING the pressure - to about 25psi -because it felt like it was rolling around on the tread rather than the tyre deforming and gripping.

Worked for me - 5kmiles no worries

Other possible causes are rear damping being weak.

Phil

 

[TERRY RYAN]

Jamie
have a look at pass threads I think you will find this handling is the norm with new fitted tourances until you wear them in a bit

as I use to be a tyreman I kept an eye on all the tyre threads

(SAD I KNOW) and it seemed everyone who had tyres fitted (tourances) had this problem however after a couple of months
riding the same people did not complain again about handling etc


just an observation

 

[DavidHolmes]

Tourances: 33 psi front, 38 rear; solo - no luggage. 36/42 fully laden. Superb handling, give them 5 miles to warm up, though!

Funny you should mention strange feel from the front, though - I had a new front fitted 2000+ miles back and the feeling at low speed is that of shagged head-bearings - wandering about a bit at up to 30 mph. Checks revealed nowt, re-fitting and re-balancing did nowt , either, so I ignore it. High speed handling is still OK.

Thats exactly it. Shagged head-bearings. Only there arent any.
The point I was trying to make, is that I think Metzler quality control has gone wrong.
The first 8 (ish) sets of Tourances I had (June 2001 - December 2003) displayed none of the above characteristics. The first set I had put on last month were appalling, another front (different batch no) was much better, but not perfect. But the set of old, part worn ones we tried in between the two new ones were perfect. None of these symptoms at all.

 

[The Mechanic]

Oh boy......oh boy!

Jamie what have you gone and done, this thread is going to run and run....and run.......and run.....Why didn't you go for Dunlops or Bridgestones anything but Metzelers?....Oh my gawd what have you done.........zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

So 20 psi in the front and 62 in the rear that should do it, not the right pressures but a collective of ideas......there you go instant handling fix by comittee not experts.

I think you will need to put more miles on your tyres or go back to your supplier (tyres that is) and ask for their opinion...refund, other tyres....or maybe your rear shock is *ucked (technical term that)

Not an advert but CMC (Yamaha) do Bridgestones at trade less prices, not that I'm suggesting anything....!!!!

You are welcome to try my bike with a decent (Bridgestone) set of tyres.

Jamie I sympathise with you and genuinely hope you can sort the problem, but when you buy new tyres they should perform ok within at least 100 miles. Can you get go back to your supplier or is that out of the question?

 

[DavidHolmes]

Re: Oh boy......oh boy!

Jamie what have you gone and done, this thread is going to run and run....and run.......and run.....Why didn't you go for Dunlops or Bridgestones anything but Metzelers?....Oh my gawd what have you done.........zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

.....there you go instant handling fix by comittee not experts.


You are welcome to try my bike with a decent (Bridgestone) set of tyres.

At last, a tyre expert Great - I was sorely tempted by the Bridgestones but the committee on this board suggested to me that they would not serve so well as the Metzlers.

So, bearing in mind that 8 (ish) sets of Tourances used over 2 1/2 years and 60k miles have exeeded all my needs (and abilities), on and off road (except for the Belgian meet, when I used TKC 80's), are the Bridgestones as good as Tourances used to be?

What mileage do you get from them? How do they handle 3k upright motorway comuting before seeing a corner? Do they square off, or noticably cup? And when they see a corner, how 'fast' do they turn in at; 90,60,30 & 5mph. Do they 'flop' below 20? At what speed does countersteering become a reality? When run under inflated (off road pressures) on the road, how fast and how long can you go before they deform/crack/blister? How do they handle fully laden two up with luggage (plus 50kg over and above) on loose gravel? In sub zero temperatures? What is your puncture to mile ratio? What are they like, 3/4 worn, in the rain filtering in London: How badly are they affected by white lines? Overbanding? Potholes? Bricks? And what, if any, little vibration/ocsillation quirks do they have?

And having only ever run at BMW (OE) stated pressures, what would I run the Bridgestones at? (We are talking BT 020's, or is there another Bridgestone option?)

And the Dunlops, D607's? What are they like, as per above?

 

[littleredrooster]

Thats exactly it. Shagged head-bearings. Only there arent any.

..Ahhh, but there's a telelever ball-joint! That could still be suspect, I fear.

 

[DavidHolmes]

..Ahhh, but there's a telelever ball-joint! That could still be suspect, I fear.

Having that checked, at great expense, on Friday. Still doesnt explain why the old part worn tyres should be ok (as were the TKC 80s), but having the next service 2k early just to be sure....I'm also replacing the (brand new) Tourances and having the shocks serviced (by Harris) as well.....