woll
Guest
Has any one changed from a 1200gs to K1200s
whats your thoughts on the K1200s
whats your thoughts on the K1200s
had a short ride on one, great power, tight handling, but for "my" real world, the GS is grand.
YMMV.
YMMV.
The Bede
Registered user
... Had a 100 mile test run on one. Sharp handling and the electronic suspension is a hoot, superb stability at speed and very quick. The acceleration is fabulous, but it has deceptively smooth linear power delivery so you don't get the big adrenalin surge as the heavy horses start kicking in. O to Ban 6ish seconds
I loved it... But in the real world the 1200GS has pretty much everything you need, better accessories (factory and aftermarket) and it is more practical if you are a 'multi-disciplinary' rider. It's the ol' excitement versus practicality argument, decide what you want the bike for then decide.
... Thougj I'd have a K1200S as a second bike in a heartbeat (funds not permitting je regrette)
The K1200S is a superb motorcycle, and I am very fortunate to have one, in addition to my 1200GS. But if I was only able to have one motorcycle the GS would be it. It is so versatile and has a wider range of uses than the K1200S, from my own perspective.
K1200S
In the past two years have moved from the 1200GS, to the K1200S, to the K1200GT (06) and now the K1200R (have a R1100RT as well).
They are all great bikes and wish I could have kept them all, as to which I prefer, its a tough one and I don`t know the answer
In the past two years have moved from the 1200GS, to the K1200S, to the K1200GT (06) and now the K1200R (have a R1100RT as well).
They are all great bikes and wish I could have kept them all, as to which I prefer, its a tough one and I don`t know the answer
Aurelius
Registered user
I tried very hard to like the 1200GS since it seemed to be the natural upgrade from my 1150GS, but three test rides on different 1200GS's left me totally unimpressed. The K1200S I eventually bought to replace my aging 1150GS was a breath of fresh air. Its useless off road, but the GS is pretty limited there as well, so that wasn't much of a loss. The GS seems to corner more easily due to its weight distribution and lack of a stiff steering damper. In tight turns it might even be able to pull away from the K1200S, but anywhere else the K-bike will leave the GS far behind. The things I disliked most about the GS are its tall suspension (useless for a street bike), and its archaic boxer engine. Its underpowered, shakes far too much at idle, and causes everything on the bike to rattle even when it does get up to speed. The K-bike is a much more refined ride, though its gearbox clearly isn't up to modern standards, and it has an annoying front end weave at speeds of 40 mph or less, which even the new and improved steering damper has been unable to cure. For what its worth, I recently sold my K1200S and bought a Triumph Speed Triple 1050, which I consider a far better street bike than either the GS or KS.
Front end weave below 40mph? Not something I have ever noticed on mine. As for the gearbox, it is superior to the one on my 2004 Sprint ST. I did get a ride on a 2007 Speed Triple and the gearbox is an improvement on earlier Triumphs, but I wouldn't regard that as up to modern standards either. Its still notchy and it wasn't a patch on the 2007 R1200R I rode recently, which is an improvement on the earlier boxers.
Had a couple of hours test ride on the K1200R. Very addictive 3rd gear acceleration out of 30mph limits, all the way to an easy ban without changing gear But, the pillion seat isn't the best and I wore my pillion like a rucksack. Saying that on the motorway she almost fell asleep And the BMW luggage wouldn't have been enough for even me on a two week holiday. It'd be nice to have one and your own private road / track, until then the GS does enough and fast enough for me not to really really want one.
Unless it's going really cheap
But, the pillion seat isn't the best and I wore my pillion like a rucksack. Saying that on the motorway she almost fell asleep And the BMW luggage wouldn't have been enough for even me on a two week holiday. It'd be nice to have one and your own private road / track, until then the GS does enough and fast enough for me not to really really want one. Unless it's going really cheap
Aurelius
Registered user
Its been one of the biggest complaints on the K1200S forum I joined two years ago, and its been mentioned in every moto review. In one case, test riders even went as far as to remove the steering damper to solve the problem, but that only makes the front end unstable (I've tried it). In '06, BMW came out with an improved steering damper (less stiff), which dealerships offered to swap out for free. It lessened the problem to a certain degree, but didn't eliminate it. Perhaps someday BMW will build bikes free of fundamental design flaws like this and do it at a competitive price, but that day seems pretty far off.
I've read occasional complaints about notchyness on even the new 1050 Triumph gearboxes, but the two bikes I've ridden (including my Speed Triple) are among the slickest shifting motorcycles I've ever experienced. Suzuki has for years set the standard when it comes to transmissions, and these Triumphs shifted as well as the new crop of GSXR's I've ridden.
I don't know what forums you have been looking at Andrew but the forums I have been to have little mention of the problem. Same with the road tests I have read which have not mentioned this at all. The 2 demo K12s's I rode didn't exhibit this behaviour either.
As for design flaws, perhaps you have noticed the flurry of posts in Triumph forums about the spongy brake issues on the 1050 Speed Triple and the 1050 Sprint ST. There was also the issue with the excessive amounts of heat finding their way back to the rider on the 1050 Sprint, or the panniers on the same model that were flimsy and required a total redesign (which did improve them, but also cut the capacity down to a level where it was no longer possible to fit a full face helmet in them). It seems BMW don't have the monopoly on fundamental design flaws.
You must be the lucky one that got a Speed Triple that was built properly, rather than what has become Triumphs usual standard
Aurelius
Registered user
This is the forum I was a member of until recently: www.bmwk1200s.com Make sure you answer the questionaires about the number times you've had to replace the transmission, final drive, engine, ESA suspension, etc.
The problem was excessive lever travel. The caliper pistons were replaced with longer units in '07 which solved the problem. All '06 and '05 models are eligible for the free upgrade. I just had mine done last Saturday - now they work as well as the Brembo brakes on my Ducati.
These are not fundamental design flaws; all of them are easily fixable without changing the basic design of the bike (the heat issue on the Sprint is gone on the '07 model). Unfortunately thats not the case with BMW's shoddy transmissions, imploding final drives, or unstable steering geometry, among other things.
I have both and pretty much agree with Bob Southgate. Only problems have been a tailight bulb which blew within 8 miles from new and battery that expired just before warranty runs out. Have run Sportecs (last set only did 2400 miles) but current Pilot Roads much better. 900miles on K, 21000 on GS but I :do ride the latter through the winter as well.
Richard
This is the forum I was a member of until recently: www.bmwk1200s.com Make sure you answer the questionaires about the number times you've had to replace the transmission, final drive, engine, ESA suspension, etc.
Very easy, the answer is zero.
I've had no issues with paint peeling off parts of my K1200S, which is such a nice change after the crappy finish on my Triumph.The problem was excessive lever travel. The caliper pistons were replaced with longer units in '07 which solved the problem. All '06 and '05 models are eligible for the free upgrade. I just had mine done last Saturday - now they work as well as the Brembo brakes on my Ducati.
It took Triumph a long time before they eventually decided to replace these parts, and not before they had tried to fob off many owners that there wasn't an issue.
These are not fundamental design flaws; all of them are easily fixable without changing the basic design of the bike (the heat issue on the Sprint is gone on the '07 model). Unfortunately thats not the case with BMW's shoddy transmissions, imploding final drives, or unstable steering geometry, among other things.
Gosh, if they were not design flaws then Triumph should have been able to fix all these problems in a jiffy. But instead it took them 2 years to do it
I would hate to see how they long it would take them to deal with a design flaw.I'm glad you are pleased with your SPIII Andrew but I have a sneaking suspicion that in about 12-18 months you will be on here extolling the virtues of your latest steed and telling us what a pile of crap your SPIII was
Aurelius
Registered user
Very easy, the answer is zero.
I'm relieved to hear that you're not one of the 16% who have had to replace their transmissions (yet).
Remind me again how many years it took BMW to address the problem of engine surging? 14 years wasn't it?
And how many decades was it until they finally solved the problem of cracked shaft splines? Final drives and transmissions still seem to be falling apart though. Maybe in another couple of decades they'll have that sorted as well. 
Gosh, if they were not design flaws then Triumph should have been able to fix all these problems in a jiffy. But instead it took them 2 years to do it
I didn't say they weren't design flaws - I said they weren't fundamental design flaws. The latter is one which requires a wholesale redesign to fix, not just the addition of a heat shield under the seat or longer brake caliper pistons.
I'm glad you are pleased with your SPIII Andrew but I have a sneaking suspicion that in about 12-18 months you will be on here extolling the virtues of your latest steed and telling us what a pile of crap your SPIII was
I'm relieved to hear that you're not one of the 16% who have had to replace their transmissions (yet).
I would be interested as to where you get your figures from Andrew.
Remind me again how many years it took BMW to address the problem of engine surging? 14 years wasn't it?
Are you referring to the oilhead GS's? They first appeared in 1993, so are you trying to tell me that BMW only got the surging problem sorted out this year? As for the cracked shaft splines, do you have some accurate statistics available to back this up? I would be interested to see them
So what is the difference between a design flaw and a fundamental design flaw? Is it based on the time it takes a manufacturer to fix a fault? You say all Triumph needed to do was put in a heat shield, but it took them 2 years to do this. Obvioulsy not such a simple fix after all. And let's not mention how long it took Triumph to recall all the 955 engined bikes to replace the plastic fule fittings after the problem was first discovered (oh ok, it was 6 years, and they were forced into it by the authorities)
Aurelius
Registered user
Read the poll results on the K1200S forum I mentioned in an earlier post.
I thought the oilheads made their appearance in 1990, but if it was '93 then it "only" took BMW 11 years to fix the problem - all the while denying there was any problem.
Exactly what is it that you think requires statistics to back up? The fact that cracked shaft splines were a well known problem with BMW's since the time of the airheads? Surely you're not going to plead ignorance about that.
The insertion of a heat shield clearly was a simple fix, just as swapping out a set of brake caliper pistons was. The fact that Triumph took two years to address the problem doesn't for a moment imply that the problem was a difficult one to address. Compare that to BMW's infamous final drive failures. There have been at least four final drive designs since the time of the airheads, yet the problem still persists, and not just on the R-bikes but on the K-bikes as well. This suggests that there's a fundamental flaw in BMW's whole approach to designing these drives. Its not a matter of simply swapping out a drive seal, using a different type of lubricant, or installing different bearings. That would be a simple fix.
And let's not mention how long it took Triumph to recall all the 955 engined bikes to replace the plastic fule fittings after the problem was first discovered (oh ok, it was 6 years, and they were forced into it by the authorities)
Well that's one I hadn't heard of. I'll cheerfully concede that Triumph should have made this simple change much sooner than it did. However, this again is an example of a very minor problem with an easy solution. It certainly doesn't bear comparison to the fundamental design problems afflicting BMW's, now does it?
Ah, an internet poll. I should have guessed. They are always a 100% reliable indicator of problems
So you are saying the problem was only fixed in 2004? I'm sure there are plenty who would dispute that. Certainly my 1995 R1100GS and my 1999 R1150GS didn't suffer any surging issues at all.
Exactly what is it that you think requires statistics to back up? The fact that cracked shaft splines were a well known problem with BMW's since the time of the airheads? Surely you're not going to plead ignorance about that.
A well known problem according to who? You? And what percentage of bikes actually suffered these problems? Remember, just because it's on the internet doesn't mean the problem is widespread. We are far more likley to hear the bad news here rather than the good.
The fact it took Triumph 2 years to address these problems suggests that it wasn't a simple fix. If it was they would have been able to sort it out in 2005, the year these models first appeared.
I won't mention the chain adjuster mechanism on the single sided swing arm Triumphs that seizes up and requires a strip down of the entire rear hub to cure it, which usually ends up with the customer paying
10 years after this design first appeared and it's still a problem.So just what percentage of BMW's have suffered these "infamous" failures?
Well that's one I hadn't heard of. I'll cheerfully concede that Triumph should have made this simple change much sooner than it did. However, this again is an example of a very minor problem with an easy solution. It certainly doesn't bear comparison to the fundamental design problems afflicting BMW's, now does it?
And a solution that they sat on for far too long before they were forced to take action. If they hadn't been forced I very much doubt they would have done anything.
Aurelius
Registered user
Ah, an internet poll. I should have guessed. They are always a 100% reliable indicator of problems
A well known problem according to who? You? And what percentage of bikes actually suffered these problems? Remember, just because it's on the internet doesn't mean the problem is widespread. We are far more likley to hear the bad news here rather than the good.
Ah yes, the psychology of denial. You’ve paid a lot of money for a motorcycle, thinking it’s a quality product, but suddenly someone comes along to challenge that belief. What do you do? The usual response; “Well nothing has gone wrong with my bike so I don’t believe there’s a problem,” only makes you look stupid, so that plainly won’t do. A much more promising strategy is to demand irrefutable proof from an unimpeachable source, knowing that this criterion can never be satisfied. For any evidence supplied, respond with the claim that its unreliable, or that the sample is too small, or that the complainants have some hidden agenda and therefore aren’t to be trusted. With this strategy, any threat to the confidence you repose in your bike can be easily sidestepped.
Certainly? I seem to recall an R1100RT owner in my area who was just as certain that his bike didn't surge. I accepted his challenge to test ride it, and sure enough it surged. Clearly some people don't notice things that others do - like the front end weave you say your K1200S doesn't have.
Really? I have a faucet in my kitchen that’s been dripping water for the past two years. I can’t be arsed to buy a new washer and the tool I need to replace the old one, so I’ve just allowed it to go on dripping. Now according to your logic, the fact that I haven’t addressed the problem in two years can only mean that the solution must be an exceedingly difficult one that has so far eluded me. Surely it can’t be something as simple as installing a 50 cent washer, right?
I won't mention the chain adjuster mechanism on the single sided swing arm Triumphs that seizes up and requires a strip down of the entire rear hub to cure it, which usually ends up with the customer paying
No, by all means DO mention it. I want to hear about any problems I might encounter with the Triumph. Since I've heard no mention of it from local Triumph owners, I have to wonder whether this is a problem attributable to Britain's wet climate and the salt you use on your roads. Corrosion is not an issue here in central Florida and we obviously don't salt our roads. My friend Paul has a Triumph Sprint - I believe its a 1999 model - which he's kept outside all these years because he doesn't have a garage. Unlike me, Paul isn't very attentive to the bike. In fact, his neglect of it is almost criminal. Yet in all the years he's owned it, only two problems have emerged. One is that his clutch cable had to be replaced twice; the other is a leaking oil seal which was replaced last month. Other than that, the bike continues to run flawlessly. In fact, his experience with it was one of the things that persuaded me to buy a Triumph.
Ah yes, the psychology of denial. You’ve paid a lot of money for a motorcycle, thinking it’s a quality product, but suddenly someone comes along to challenge that belief. What do you do? The usual response; “Well nothing has gone wrong with my bike so I don’t believe there’s a problem,” only makes you look stupid, so that plainly won’t do. A much more promising strategy is to demand irrefutable proof from an unimpeachable source, knowing that this criterion can never be satisfied. For any evidence supplied, respond with the claim that its unreliable, or that the sample is too small, or that the complainants have some hidden agenda and therefore aren’t to be trusted. With this strategy, any threat to the confidence you repose in your bike can be easily sidestepped.
If I have had no problems with my own bike then it is hardly denial to state that. But it is certainly prudent to ask the source of information to establish how reliable it is. A poll on an internet site is not a reliable source of information.
Certainly? I seem to recall an R1100RT owner in my area who was just as certain that his bike didn't surge. I accepted his challenge to test ride it, and sure enough it surged. Clearly some people don't notice things that others do - like the front end weave you say your K1200S doesn't have.
If all else fails, try and undermine the credibility of the other poster by questioning their ability to ride a motorcycle and spot faults. Face it Andrew, the reason I haven't noticed a front end weave is because there isn't one. I also searched on the K1200S forum for posts relating to that and I had to go back to 2005 before I found them! And guess who the author was of most of the threads relating to that issue!
You are really scraping the barrel if that is the best you can come up with Andrew
You are fully aware that Triumph taking as long as they did to fix a brake related problem ( and a safety issue at that) is totally unsatisfactory. To compare that with a leaking tap is ridiculous No, by all means DO mention it. I want to hear about any problems I might encounter with the Triumph. Since I've heard no mention of it from local Triumph owners, I have to wonder whether this is a problem attributable to Britain's wet climate and the salt you use on your roads. Corrosion is not an issue here in central Florida and we obviously don't salt our roads. My friend Paul has a Triumph Sprint - I believe its a 1999 model - which he's kept outside all these years because he doesn't have a garage. Unlike me, Paul isn't very attentive to the bike. In fact, his neglect of it is almost criminal. Yet in all the years he's owned it, only two problems have emerged. One is that his clutch cable had to be replaced twice; the other is a leaking oil seal which was replaced last month. Other than that, the bike continues to run flawlessly. In fact, his experience with it was one of the things that persuaded me to buy a Triumph.
No, the problem has been experienced in parts of the US as well as Europe, so it is not a climate issue. It is a factory couldn't be arsed to grease it properly when manufactured issue. I also had a 1999 Sprint ST. Very nicely put together, the fairing and other bodywork panels all fitted together well and it looked as good at 5 years old and with 35000 miles on the clock as it did when new, but I had the following issues with it:-
Head gasket failed
Exhaust header pipes cracked
Chain adjuster mechanism seized up
Started to burn oil at 15000 miles necessitating new barrels, pistons, rings and valve guides.
Factory fit alarm drained the battery
At least the factory waranty department sorted these issues back then, but since 2002, their build quality has nose dived, as has the level of support from the warranty department if you get problems.
Aurelius
Registered user
Yes, any source of data is "unreliable" to those determined not to believe it. Suppose you tell me what you would consider an unimpeachable source.
If all else fails, try and undermine the credibility of the other poster by questioning their ability to ride a motorcycle and spot faults. Face it Andrew, the reason I haven't noticed a front end weave is because there isn't one. I also searched on the K1200S forum for posts relating to that and I had to go back to 2005 before I found them! And guess who the author was of most of the threads relating to that issue!
Of what relevance is it how many posts I've written about it? Did you count the number of people who mentioned the problem? Did you note the fact that its been mentioned in tests in various moto-mags, one of which (CycleWorld?) even went to the trouble of removing the steering damper in an effort to solve the problem? The front end weave certainly wasn't a product of anyone's imagination.
You are really scraping the barrel if that is the best you can come up with Andrew
Now you're just being deliberately obtuse. Your claim was that the length of time Triumph took to address the issue suggests that the problem wasn't an easy one to fix. My example shows how absurd that reasoning is. There is no logical relation between the length of time it takes before a manufacturer addresses a known problem and how difficult the problem was to address.
Were these failures you mention common to the breed? I'm genuinely curious, since I've heard no similar reports. If you can direct me to a Triumph website where complaints like these have been posted, I'd very much like to read about them. And I promise not to dismiss them merely because they happen to be on the internet.
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