Are tracklogs admisible as evidence in court?

Bumpkin

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Squid's questions about scamera overlays for his Quest raised this thought in my mind again. Are GPS track-logs admissible as evidence in court for speeding offences? They can provide place, date/time and speed data that if they were might be pretty damning should a speeding offence have been suspected, confiscation and subsequent examination of your GPSR could potentially have quite drastic consequences.
 
Yes, just as are Tachograph records, unlikely to be used as stand alone evidence though, more likely to be used as corroborative evidence, and remember it goes the other way to and could help prove your innocence.
 
In a word ........No. But Dick's right, they can't be used as a sole means of evidence as they are not a Home Office approved device. But if for example Police were investigating a fatal RTA or some such like, they would almost certainly be taken into account. But they are NOT evidence. You would not get pulled, track log read, and prosecuted on the basis of it.
 
KMD said:
But if for example Police were investigating a fatal RTA or some such like, they would almost certainly be taken into account. But they are NOT evidence.
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Yes, I agree, I'm sure it could be taken in support of other evidence in such a case.

Coolcarbon said:
Do they record date and time relative to track location....:nenau
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Not too sure about other units but my Quest does date/time, altitude, speed, direction and long/lat for each point along with the distance between each point and the time taken to cover that distance. That's unless you have tracking turned off...

Won't be long before the British government are implanting this sort of technology into new-born children. :( :rolleyes:
 
On the other hand ,if you thought you were not speeding at the time you could check the log record to see if you were.

Dave
 
There is a reason for my 'need' over scamera protection.

I had a clean sheet for about 18yrs then got flashed very early one morning - my fault, clear roads when traffic usually dictated the pace past a camera near my office. Fair cop - paid up and took the points.

2 weeks later, towing a caravan and driving a bleedin Volvo. Driving to Portmadog in wales - taking extra extra care as just been had.

Get home to find myself and 4 of the 5 people who were away all had NIPS waiting. Mobile camera, right near the camp site non of us saw the thing all week we were there. Pic comes through with the caravan so knew when it was. Sure I wasn't speeding although the spot was on a country road at the bottom of a hill YARDS before the national speed limit sign. Said to be 35 in a 30

So basically, try as you might its a mine field out there.
 
Squid if your track log actually shows Date, Time, Location, and the Speed that you were travelling at, then it most certainly can be used as evidence, it doesn't matter a damn if it's Home Office approved or not that only applies to the equipment used by the Police or other prosecuting authority. The unfortunate bit is that it would have to be the 'Real Time' speed at the time the Camera flashed you, and not an average speed for the trip.

If a track log were to show a court that a vehicle travelling on a 30mph

road at precisely 12md on the 6/8/07 at XXXX speed camera Location

was travelling at 30mph and not 35mph that should be enough to form a reasonable doubt in the prosecution case.

To be convicted of speeding which is a criminal offence the case must be proved 'Beyond reasonable doubt'.

The date, time and location if it is recorded in enough detail would establish that the device was being used in your vehicle because it should be identical to the H/O approved device record in every aspect except the the Recorded Speed (hopefully).

But if your device just gives out averages etc it's not going to be much of much help.

If I were in your position and my device gave the relevant information I would fight the ticket without hesitation best of luck Squid:thumb2
 
squid said:
There is a reason for my 'need' over scamera protection.
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At the risk of (rightly) being accused of thread-drift, I'll make the comment that this is exactly why everyone who receives an NIP for alleged speeding should never "roll over" unless they've estabished that there is no possibility of successfully fighting it. You now have 50% of your licence gone and are justifiably somewhat paranoid :eek:
Dickieboy said:
Squid if your track log actually shows Date, Time, Location, and the Speed that you were travelling at...
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All the Garmin tracklogs that I've seen show an average speed between the tracklog points and not the instantaneous speed at any particular location. Also, we've all seen ludicrous speeds displayed as our "Max Speed" on various Garmin devices due to reception glitches, so I don't think that the numbers can be relied upon.
Dickieboy said:
...then it most certainly can be used as evidence, it doesn't matter a damn if it's Home Office approved or not that only applies to the equipment used by the Police or other prosecuting authority. The unfortunate bit is that it would have to be the 'Real Time' speed at the time the Camera flashed you, and not an average speed for the trip.

If a track log were to show a court that a vehicle travelling on a 30mph road at precisely 12md on the 6/8/07 at XXXX speed camera Location was travelling at 30mph and not 35mph that should be enough to form a reasonable doubt in the prosecution case.

To be convicted of speeding which is a criminal offence the case must be proved 'Beyond reasonable doubt'.
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Unfortunately, there are many examples of Tachograph evidence (and remember that a Tacho has to be certified as accurate) which have been ignored by the courts when in any other person's mind they introduce significant doubt as to the validity of the prosecution case. On the other hand, Tacho evidence generally is successfully used to bolster the prosecution case if it suits them.

In summary then, if your GPSR tracklog showed that you were doing, say, 36mph in a 30mph limit then I'm sure the prosecution would have no qualms in using it to corroborate their case. If, however, it showed that you were doing 28mph in that same limit it would undoubtledly be ruled irrelevant. :rolleyes:
 
Re. Alerts on a Quest: I was thinking last night that if you know the route you'll be taking and can import the cameras along your route into MapSource (or know their locations) you can easily add custom POIs, these will be announced via audio (although it will just say "via point on right in 300 yds" or similar) but text to the effect "scamera warning" or whatever can be added to appear on the screen.

No use whatsoever unless you're on a planned route though and a bit of extra work.
 
I asked a Plod mate about this some time ago and he said under PACE they have to ask your permission to look at your GPS.

You, quite rightly :D say "No", then delete the track log.

Or say "Yes" I'll just turn it on/set it up for you, and then delete said track log before giving it to him.

Another good reason to take your GPS on a plane and so have the max speed recorded at 450mph.........:augie
 
Dickieboy said:
then it most certainly can be used as evidence, it doesn't matter a damn if it's Home Office approved or not that only applies to the equipment used by the Police or other prosecuting authority.

To be convicted of speeding which is a criminal offence the case must be proved 'Beyond reasonable doubt'.
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I think some misunderstanding has crept in here. The point I made is that a GPS track log will not be used as a sole means of evidence of a speeding offence. To prove that the measuring devices must be Home Office approved, and GPS aren't. Tachographs are, and they pertain to a particular vehicle. The only thing a GPS track log shows is that at some point, that GPS was travelling at a certain (average) speed in a certain place. It doesn't show which vehicle it was in, or who was driving it, as Tacho records do.

However, as has correctly been pointed out, a track log could be introduced by the defence, and if accepted by the Court, may then bring about the 'reasonable doubt' by which the prosecution case may fail to be proved.
 
My said offence was prior to having a GPS or Talex. I was so sure I wasn't speeding I disputed it for ages - in the end I got offered a driving awareness course - had no choice but to take it really.

While this was going on I had some quotes done for Ins with 6pts instead of 3.

Had two cars at the time - family Volvo, current insures said they would not renew if I had 6pts - best quote was therefore tripple.

Had a Porsche 944 Turbo on classic Ins. They also said they would not quote - I'd have to take normal ins which again would have been at least x3.

Therefore, assuming I had 6pts but got no more in 5yrs I would be hit for thousands of pounds in increased insurance. If in the following yrs it went to 9 - I hate to think.

They are out to ruin you and your enjoyment of travel.. I find alerts of some kind help reduce this feeling a bit.
 
Jon said:
Another good reason to take your GPS on a plane and so have the max speed recorded at 450mph.........:augie
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Mine did something like 280mph once and that was on my Viffer. Tracklog showed that I'd left the road on a sharp bend in a heavily wooded area (loss of reception rather than actual), when reception was resumed I was about 1/4 mile away in another direction. In an attempt to catch up my Quest reported this impressive figure. Should have taken a screen shot prior to resetting it...
 
KMD said:
I think some misunderstanding has crept in here. The point I made is that a GPS track log will not be used as a sole means of evidence of a speeding offence. To prove that the measuring devices must be Home Office approved, and GPS aren't. Tachographs are, and they pertain to a particular vehicle. The only thing a GPS track log shows is that at some point, that GPS was travelling at a certain (average) speed in a certain place. It doesn't show which vehicle it was in, or who was driving it, as Tacho records do.

However, as has correctly been pointed out, a track log could be introduced by the defence, and if accepted by the Court, may then bring about the 'reasonable doubt' by which the prosecution case may fail to be proved.
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KMD no probs at all:) I think we more or less said much the same thing but with emphasis coming from different angles:thumb2
 
With regards to fixed cameras, I can't see how any tracklog is evidence for or against. It isn't fixed to the vehicle so as far as I can see it means bugger all. It might say you were in that place and at what speed, but surely times and dates can be tampered with and is therefore the same as writing a note saying "it wasn't me honest guv".
As for letting a copper view my log........sorry matey, got flushed this morning.
 
i looked at one of my track logs the other month after a ride,

it said i had done 129mph in a 30 zone near my house!!

this was completely wrong, all i did was give it some stick from a standing start up to 30-35mph

so sometimes track logs are way way out on speed!

my gps is a 2610, maybe there is something wrong with it, to produce a result so wildly out.
 
half_empty1 said:
it said i had done 129mph in a 30 zone near my house!!

this was completely wrong, all i did was give it some stick from a standing start up to 30-35mph.
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I think that was probably down to it getting off track and then playing catch-up, was it in a heavily built up area or under trees where sat reception might have been lost? When that happens it tends to dead reckon for a while before giving up. If you've turned a corner in the meantime then it has to jump quite a way to your actual position.

Alternatively just go to your local police station with your 2610 and make a full confession showing them the evidence :D
 
Courts have to make assessments based on the evidence before them.

If you submit a tracklog as evidence, then it IS evidence.

However, the Court will then decide how much weight they give to that particular piece of evidence. Whereas a witness can be challenged and cross-examined and, therefore, believed or not believed, a tracklog cannot be cross-examined and almost certainly will not carry much weight - particularly if the Court doesn't understand how they work (and, likely as not, even if they do).

Garmin tracklogs are not easy to 'fiddle', but they're also not very reliable for this sort of purpose as a breadcrumb is only dropped when there is a significant change of vector. The distances between breadcrumbs can be quite large and the speed indication somewhat inaccurate. Even if the breadcrumb distances are short, you would then have to factor in the accuracy factor (shown each second on the GPS but not captured on the tracklog) and the Court would assume low accuracy.

So, yes, tracklogs are evidence, but good evidence - probably not!

Greg
 
A useful site for you all on this link I think all the answers are here!

Oh and yes your track log would be used if you were in a fatal RTA ( or serious driving incident for that matter)

but how do you prove (historically I mean) who was driving, or which vehicle the track was recorded in!!!

As above these sat nav's are easy to fool

whilst stationary ( on your feet) spin around on the spot and you with your arms stretched out and ( according to a sat nav) be travelling at 25mph on the spot!

Yes I did it to prove to someone how 'stupid' and unreliable sat navs can be.

The court case was dismissed accordingly

So no worries then!!!

http://www.pepipoo.com/

the above site will explain all if you take a look....

saved my mate three points recently so read on....................

Magwa:thumb2
 
Nippy Normans supply Touratech, Wunderlich, Desert Fox and many other makes of accessories.
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