Do I have a clutch/slave seal problem???

skybo1

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I just bought a 2002 1150GS with only 4000miles.(this may be part of the problem)

I rode for an hour with lots of starts and stops and then when I came to a stop sign, I of course held in the clutch with it in first gear and had to wait probably 3 minutes. The bike started to creep forward so with the brake on hard I stalled it out.

I put it in neutral, it started right up, and I drove it home without the problem reoccuring in the next 10 minutes.



I found the following post on "blackish fluid" (which I haven't checked yet)>>>



"The same thing happened on my 02 1150 GSA. I took it right to the dealer. The seal on the slave cylinder is what failed. The deteriorating seal is what causes the blackish fluid. They changed the slave cylinder and flushed the master cylinder and the line. Since I took it for service right away, I got by with a $450 repair. Mine had 15,000 on it. I am told two things can contribute to this..not much use, (I bought my 02 in 07 with 12k), and the other biggie is sitting at the stop light with the clutch handle pulled in. This is hard on the throw out-type bearing. Apparently this causes wear and heat. After I had my failure, I came to find out this is somewhat common. Change your clutch fluid regularly and hope you don't have to pay for a new master cylinder.

SO...
what do you all think?
Can I adjust the clutch?
Can I replace the fluid myself?
Thanks
 
skybo1 said:
I just bought a 2002 1150GS with only 4000miles.(this may be part of the problem)

I rode for an hour with lots of starts and stops and then when I came to a stop sign, I of course held in the clutch with it in first gear and had to wait probably 3 minutes. The bike started to creep forward so with the brake on hard I stalled it out.

I put it in neutral, it started right up, and I drove it home without the problem reoccuring in the next 10 minutes.



I found the following post on "blackish fluid" (which I haven't checked yet)>>>



"The same thing happened on my 02 1150 GSA. I took it right to the dealer. The seal on the slave cylinder is what failed. The deteriorating seal is what causes the blackish fluid. They changed the slave cylinder and flushed the master cylinder and the line. Since I took it for service right away, I got by with a $450 repair. Mine had 15,000 on it. I am told two things can contribute to this..not much use, (I bought my 02 in 07 with 12k), and the other biggie is sitting at the stop light with the clutch handle pulled in. This is hard on the throw out-type bearing. Apparently this causes wear and heat. After I had my failure, I came to find out this is somewhat common. Change your clutch fluid regularly and hope you don't have to pay for a new master cylinder.

SO...
what do you all think?
Can I adjust the clutch?
Can I replace the fluid myself?
Thanks
Click to expand...

Clutch is not adjustable, fluid you can replace, but you need to change to a bleed nipple at the end not the BMW fitting, yes you should not sit at stop lights riding the clutch.

Slave can be replaced without removing the final drive and should cost about $150 plus labour:beer:
 
skybo1 said:
... and then when I came to a stop sign, I of course held in the clutch with it in first gear and ... the bike started to creep forward so with the brake on hard I stalled it out.

I put it in neutral, it started right up, and I drove it home without the problem reoccuring in the next 10 minutes.


SO...
what do you all think?
Can I adjust the clutch?
Can I replace the fluid myself?
Thanks
Click to expand...

Same thing happened to mine except there was fluid leaking from the region around the slave cylinder. When I started stripping it down one of the hose banjos seemed to be a bit loose, however there did appear to be fluid contamination on the wrong end of the piston. Never the less, I replaced the slave cylinder and change my fluids frequently. :thumb
 
So if I replace the fluids and don't have any leaks, is it possible this problem will go away? or do I need to replace the slave cylinder?
I would like to do myself---
What else would I replace while I have it apart?
It has only 4000 miles but an '02.
Thanks in advance.
 
AFAIK there are no spare parts available for the slave cylinder. What is reported to occur is that the piston O-Ring perishes under the influence of old hydraulic fluid and subsequently leaks.

When I stripped down my old slave cylinder I found the O-Ring was displaced from its groove but, it didn't look too bad. :confused: What is important here is how old the braid fluid is and how frequently the bike is used? If it hasn't moved for a long time the piston O-Ring may have developed a lot of stiction whilst waiting for action and was pulled out of its original position.

You might consider replacing the copper washers around the banjo bolts but I didn't bother. I did replace the gasket for the slave cylinder but it doesn't look like it does much because it's about as thick as a red Rizla (look that up if you need to).

It's a fairly simple job to do but the upper mounting bolt is a bit difficult to get to. Mine was quite stiff and I had to move the crossbar, which is in the way, after the bolts' head became a tad deformed to ensure I didn't ruin it. :blast
 
Its not the slave cylinder. if the slave cylinder leaks it contaminates the clutch. Its the master cylinder small seal in front of the piston.
 
Ugly Cow said:
Its not the slave cylinder. if the slave cylinder leaks it contaminates the clutch.
Click to expand...

Not when mine had a problem but I didn't try to reuse my old slave cylinder because I didn't fancy another long stand whilst the RAC made their battle plan to extract me from the side of the road.

Ugly Cow said:
Its the master cylinder small seal in front of the piston.
Click to expand...

I hope the OP finds that is the case. :thumb I look forward to reading the final prognosis.
 
Hi Ditchwater, I would not post something unless I was pretty sure, we are all bikers here to help each other.
 
Well, today I tried to investigate further. I found...
- The clutch reservoir fluid level was to the top of the circular viewing window
- I bled the clutch- the fluid was a normal light amber color.
- I re-serviced the level to half the viewing window.
- There are no leaks/drips around slave cylinder- maybe a faint oil shadow
- I rode a few minutes and the bike seems okay
Question? Ugly cow- elaborate on master seal leak if you would and fix for it
Question? If fluid was too high and I sat for a few minutes with clutch lever depressed, could fluid in slave over CAT heat up and expand making clutch engage slightly?
Can I hold off on a slave replacement?
Thanks all
 
Ugly Cow said:
I would not post something unless I was pretty sure,
Click to expand...

Nobody can be sure from 3000 miles away until the OP uses the offers of knowledge, or experience, given around here to help him diagnose the problem and then hopefully report back with his solution and conclusions.

Skybo 1, have a look at this part: BRA58464 . This is the sort of thing you need for a master cylinder repair but I thought there were O-Rings available for this part on there own. :confused:
 
skybo1 said:
Question? If fluid was too high and I sat for a few minutes with clutch lever depressed, could fluid in slave over CAT heat up and expand making clutch engage slightly?
Click to expand...

I think the symptom associated with too-high fluid level is clutch slip - not enough fluid can return from the slave to fully engage the clutch. Fluid expansion would, by logic, make this worse?

Long ago, I had a car with a leaky seal in the hydraulic clutch circuit - if I sat in gear with the clutch pedal held down, it would gradually start to creep forward more and more as the fluid leaked out of the pressurised circuit.

If it was me, having changed the fluid, I'd just ride the bike and only look for things to fix if the problem recurred.
 
elaborate on master seal leak if you would and fix for it

The reason that the fluid level is not dropping is because the fluid is leaking past the seal and back into the reservoir. if it was the slave cylinder seal leaking the level will slowly drop as the only way for pressure to drop (which is what is happening, hence creeping forward) is past the seal making its way to the clutch. The part ditchwater has highlighted is what you need providing that the bore is free from score marks.
 
skybo1 said:
Well, today I tried to investigate further. I found...
- The clutch reservoir fluid level was to the top of the circular viewing window
- I bled the clutch- the fluid was a normal light amber color.
- I re-serviced the level to half the viewing window.
- There are no leaks/drips around slave cylinder- maybe a faint oil shadow
- I rode a few minutes and the bike seems okay
Question? Ugly cow- elaborate on master seal leak if you would and fix for it
Question? If fluid was too high and I sat for a few minutes with clutch lever depressed, could fluid in slave over CAT heat up and expand making clutch engage slightly?
Can I hold off on a slave replacement?
Thanks all
Click to expand...

Don't worry about all the posts predicting doom and gloom. It's not unusual for the clutch to need bleeding after a bike has not been used for lengthy periods.

If it's all ok after you've bled it just use it and see what happens.
 
I do not understand how bleeding the system will prevent pressure loss. A seal left in its bore for a very long period of time without pressure can lead to the 'V' seal deforming so not sealing on the bore/piston properly. After a few applications the seal usually reforms to its original shape.If leakage past the seal occurs then replacement is the only answer. Air is obviously compressable so if he had exessive air in the system then the clutch would not clear properly.
 
Ugly Cow said:
I do not understand how bleeding the system will prevent pressure loss. .
Click to expand...

The fluid may have absorbed air while it's been standing.

My "bleed" advice is only based on experience that i've had with customers bikes with similar problems. I tend not to think about it too much once i've found the problem and fixed it as there's not much i can do about it before the problem has occured. :D
 
Ugly Cow said:
The fluid may have absorbed air while it's been standing.


no chance, its just not possible.
Click to expand...

break and clutch fluid sucks up moisture like a spong if left for a long time..... what is moisture i hear you ask??? H2O.... yes that also includes "air"

Lets face it, after the miles that bikes had done it was well due a fluid change to purge contaminates.
 
How about this theory:

The slave cylinder fluid has heated excessively due to friction from the release bearing, which is only grease lubed, and caused a vapour lock, similar to your brakes overheating. You lose the lever travel but once it cools down, the vapour is absorbed back into the fluid (like steam condensing) and so the lever comes back and all is well again.

It can happen when the brakes get overcooked, that's why they use higher boiling point fluid in race brakes. So why not in a clutch with a miniscule release bearing ( I have a picture of one from my old slave cyl but can't find it!)

Any takers or am I talking mince??
 
brake & clutch fluid sucks up moisture like a sponge if left for a long time..... what is moisture i hear you ask??? H2O.... yes that also includes "air"



Fer fecks sake it's simple: air is light, fluid is heavier. How on earth can air seep its way into the fluid. Of course moisture can contaminate the brake fluid and decrease the boiling point so decreasing braking efficiency.Air can only be dispersed in a fluid through agitation. End of.
 
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