More 50mph speed limits on the way

Oxon CC now plan to bring in another seven new 50mph limits. I suspect these limits are the advance guard for lowering most of the non-trunk A and B roads in Oxfordshire to 50 or below. The Oxford Times today already reports plans for more speed cameras elsewhere in the county, and I don't think it would be too long before we saw cameras on these newly limited roads as well.

The Council plans to reduce the speed limits from 60mph to 50mph along the following roads:

A361 Shipton to Lechlade
B4027 Holton to Islip
A329 Milton Common to Thame
B4012 Thame to Postcombe
B4011 Ambrosden to Boarstall
B4437 Charlbury to Wootton
A417 Faringdon to Wantage

In several cases (4012, 4011, 4437) there have been recent fatalities on these roads. However, the Council is refusing to release accident causation data, so we have no way of knowing what has caused these crashes. From past experience, I suspect speed in excess of the limits will be a minimal causation factor.

I’m already seeing some horrific frustration overtakes happening, with some VERY narrow misses. And if you really fancy seeing some aggression in action, try sticking to a few of Oxon's Turkey Thirties with a white van on your rear tyre...

I'll be trying to persuade the Council to release more detailed figures (although I suspect I'm whistling in the wind), but I intend to fight these. If anyone fancies helping and is local, let me know.

Cheers

Mark

I'm absolutley convinced,that we are having a 50mph blanket speed limit imposed on us through the back door.They're popping up everywhere now.

On the A449,there is now either a 30,40 or 50 limit from Ombersley to the north of Kidderminster,not to mention all the back roads they're slapping them on.

I keep telling people,but they think it'll never happen.

Watch out for them

MMC said:

I'll be trying to persuade the Council to release more detailed figures (although I suspect I'm whistling in the wind), but I intend to fight these. If anyone fancies helping and is local, let me know.

Click to expand...

Can you not request the release of this data through The Freedom of Information Act?

Well, we manage to get these kicked out last time they were proposed, so here's the second phase of the battle.

And on the A415, between Witney and Abingdon, there have been two fatalities this year - and that's on a road where they've ALREADY lowered the limit.

S'pose it saves spending money on real road safety initiatives.

What really gets me is the way the Council argues everything - when it suits them they'll use an 85th percentile, when it doesn't they'll use mean speed. When it suits them, Stats 19 forms are gospel, when it doesn't, they're 'just police opinion'. Trying to deal with them is like juggling cats.

shuck raider said:

Can you not request the release of this data through The Freedom of Information Act?

Click to expand...

Tried that one on Swindon and Wilts Scamera Partnership. That'll be £981 please sir.

We raised the money though, paid and hung them out to dry in the local press. Not that it worried them of course, the cameras stayed on the M4.

Just as a matter of interest,do the council get a grant from somewhere for posting new speed limits and all the work that's included in the job.Putting up new signs,taking down the old ones and painting the road a pretty colour all costs lots of money,there must be a back hander somewhere along the line?

Vern said:

there must be a back hander somewhere along the line?

Click to expand...

It's probably from the "scamera partnerships", sell the camera for £20,000 then give £5,000 as a back hander for everyone installed

Ah - would that it were! We could get the whole lot exposed and some proper road safety measures. But the cost of the new limits is borne by the tax payer. The Scamerati are often keen to enforce the new ulta-low limits though.

The council officers believe this is the best thing for road safety. I don't for a minute believe they're doing this to be nasty, conniving and controlling. I think I'd give up now if I did. They're doing this because they believe it will work (despite the evidence in Oxon that it won't) and because they beleive it will give the best casualty reduction for the cash. I just happen to beleive differently.

Having said all that, I've seen some VERY selective reporting of stats, some very clear wilful misunderstanding and plenty of examples of officers completely ignoring facts that don't suit them. I've seen a few nasty tricks in the way my arguments are presented by officers too.

I've little doubt that the consultation for this is little more than an exercise in box-ticking and that the limits will be imposed. But I still intend to fight it all the way because I believe the new limits won't work, are unnecessary, a waste of money, dangerous and wrong.

I also believe they're being imposed simply because the council needs to be seen to do something after a year in which 57 people died on Oxon's roads - 17 higher than last year's total. And that's after MILLIONS spent on calming, lower limits, cameras and speed kills policies.

MMC said:

The Council plans to reduce the speed limits from 60mph to 50mph along the following roads:

A361 Shipton to Lechlade

Click to expand...

I'm not far from the roundabout at the top end of Lechlade leading onto the A361 and I know that there have been a few accidents that block this road over the last four years I've been here, but I've never really understood why... there are plenty of safe overtake zones, hell I often manage it in a diesel Land Cruiser so how hard can it be?

That said I’ve seen some pretty stupid stuff on that road, I came back down there late the Monday before last to find what looked like a 4x4 or a van off the road through a fence, I almost hit the copper walking on the opposite side of the road with an apology for a day glow jacket on… you could only see him just at the last moment. I actually went back to see if they needed a hand to tow the vehicle out of the hedge and get both it and the copper on to a clearer stretch of road, but the cop seemed to think it was a better idea to wait around for the recovery truck…

I can’t see how the initial accident happened, but I’d be very surprised if they didn’t avoid a follow on accident.

Speed limits are only half the problem, the biggest issue I've seen on the roads is that people dont think or half the time care what is going on...

This is part of an article from a recent IAM publication (motorcycle branch) it is titled:- Crisis? Yes CRISIS

"When you come across another speed limit or a set of speed cameras seemingly in the middle of nowhere, just think that it could be that all else has failed. The Cat & Fiddle road in th ePeak District of Derbyshire is a case in point. Following at least a dozen fatalities in the space of a few months a blanket 50 mph was instigated. Such a limit on this stretch of road is inexcusable but the powers that be had no other option due to the sheer stupidity of some of our brethen"

The articles continues:-

" The nationwide average annual mileage on a one year old sports bike is between 2,500 & 3,000 miles.They are invariably ridden on fine evenings and at the weekend. How can such riders develop the skills to ride and control machines capable of almost 180 mph? "

The article continues on about the lives of locals etc, I for one live on a "fast" road in the depths of Cornwall, all to often on a nice dry weekend I here the roar of aftermarket baffleless exhausts screaming up my particular road . The rider/driver may thing it sounds great I don't it bloody annoying Many here wax lyrical about loud cans all in the name of safety well thats bull***t those guys here who ride emergency vehicles know full well that even their 150 ish Db sirens are not heard so your loud can ain't going to make a fat bit of difference.

My rant over....

I bet all the artic drivers are rubbing their hands together knowing that their restricted speed of 40mph has just been increased to 50mph!

Much safer to have an artic hurtling along at speed!!!!!

Mark,

I'll try to help.

I know at least 3 of those roads well. In particular, the 4027 is one of the great fun roads (I always use it going to NOG instead of the A40) and is not prone to accidents as far as I am aware.

The Milton Common/Thame road has got an accident history but its main problem is the lousy surface they have recently put on it.

The Thame/Postcombe road is undoubtedly dangerous -yet another death this week. My guess (no knowledge) is poor road markings and signage - there are a number of places where it looks safe to overtake but an oncoming car is totally hidden. I suppose there is the odd bend one could misjudge but nothing too difficult.

Having got accident data out of the partnership for one of the A418 cameras - I know how skewed their use of statistics is (I even got them to admit that it was facing the wrong way).

Do you know Gary Baldwin? He runs Rapid Training and is a Police Accident Investigator (or whatever they call them these days). He has written scathing articles about Oxfordshire speed limits in the past (including on the Milton Common/Postcombe road - the A40). His job may preclude getting too obviously involved but maybe he could give some pointers?

Like you I'm pessimistic - I've corresponded with Geoff Barrell in the past. Very amicable exchange which made no impact whatsoever.

Paul

Thanks Paul - that's great. I'll be in touch after the weekend...

Even if it's a lost cause, I think these limits will cause so many frustration overtakes that it's worth fighting.

... The A329 Milton Common to Thame needs a new road surface, I've stopped using it as a route because it is dangerous at any speed and lethal when wet (young chap died on it in September). Changing the limit will not make this dangerous road suddenly safe.

... I love the B4071 Thame-Postcombe, it's a cracking road with some lovely curves. Fortunately there are only odd stretches of surface which need treating with caution. There are existing double-white zones, which are placed in needless locations ... no fun if you're stuck behind a slow truck ... they have become so superfluous I no treat them as 'voluntary' ... FFS there only there as piece of council arse-covering.

... A concerted letter writing, e-mailing and general harrasment campaign is needed. Where's me pencil sharpener ...

Mark, I'll try to help in whatever way I can too. Drop me a pm.

I use the B4011 daily, in the morning from Bicester to Thame and the other way in the evening and it's a wonderful stretch of road that a 50mph limit will make more dangerous, not less as it will just serve to increase the number of frustration overtakes.

When I first started using the road regularly about 5 years ago I was astonished at some of the holes in the hedgerows that were quite obviously the aftermath of crashes. I was astonished because I couldn't work out how poeple managed to get it so wrong to have crashed where they had.

The number of frustration overtakes on this road are enormous due to the limited number of opportunities that exist over a 7 or so mile stretch of road. I routinely see people make creeping overtakes in crappy vans and suchlike where I know there's insufficient visibility to do so even on a quick bike, purely because they don't want to follow the trundling twerp at the head of the queue for the next 5 miles.

There are many sections of this road that can be quite deceptive in their ability to "hide" oncoming traffic which proper caution signs could improve significantly, but we get the daft "Watch your Speed, x killed in y years over the next z miles" nonsense instead.

If anyone were serious about safety on the B4011 then they'd address the real problems: the road markings on much of the road are worn to the point of being invisible in wet, dark conditions; the road surface is breaking up in places and offers poor grip in others due to it being plain worn out; that visibility is compromised on many of the "normal" overtaking spots due to overgrown hedgerows during the summer; and that there is an almost complete lack of appropriate warning signs for the hazards along the road. Oh, and in the winter, sections of the road are gritted at random so that you suddenly encounter sheet ice on an otherwise well-gritted road.

Still, if we put a 50mph limit on it that should do the trick

Hi Phil - I would send you a PM, but you need be a site sponsor to use the PM system (I think). Failing that, you can get me on mark (AT) freemanchristie (DOT) (CO) (DOT) (UK)

but we get the daft "Watch your Speed, x killed in y years over the next z miles" nonsense instead.

Click to expand...

I actually think these are quite good. Certainly make me think and better than speed cameras because, rather than being a money making exercise, it actually tells you where people get it wrong. I don't mean the ones that say x casualties over the next 90 miles but more x in the next bend or next 1/4 mile.

Its also quite interesting to see them updated- - my impression on the 4011 is that the number of casualties being shown has fallen quite markedly; particularly that S bend between the Brill turnings and Oakley. Be interesting to know if that is impression or fact and whether it can be put down to the signs. (I know which I'd rather have).

None of which is to belittle the other very valid points you make.

Paul

MMC said:

Hi Phil - I would send you a PM, but you need be a site sponsor to use the PM system (I think).

Click to expand...

Oops... e-mail sent to the quoted address.

Paul Wakefield said:

I actually think these are quite good. Certainly make me think and better than speed cameras because, rather than being a money making exercise, it actually tells you where people get it wrong. I don't mean the ones that say x casualties over the next 90 miles but more x in the next bend or next 1/4 mile.

Click to expand...

I know what you mean and I accept that they can, sometimes, have a positive effect on a driver's behaviour in terms of raising their awareness and improving their concentration - but only if they've both read the message and correctly interpreted the message. But I remember them being errected on the B4011 a couple of years back and watching in amazement as people passing the signs for the first time spent an inordinately long time gawping at them when a simpler pictorial hazard sign would perhaps have done the job better?

Paul Wakefield said:

...that the number of casualties being shown has fallen quite markedly; particularly that S bend between the Brill turnings and Oakley

Click to expand...

I take it you mean the off-camber 'S' just along from the plant-hire depot? I must admit that I haven't seen a car through the hedge there for at least a year, but it was only on Tuesday morning that there was one in the ditch on each side of the road at the left-hander in the dip after the straight as you head towards Long Crendon - I can only assume as a result of icy conditions a few minutes earlier. Either that, or gross incompetance on behalf of one or both of the drivers.

What puzzles me about the off-camber 'S' I mentioned is that you can easily run through there at (or near) the posted (NSL) limit in dry conditions with absolutely no risk of losing traction if you drive smoothly - so what speed were those who "lost it" at that bend doing? Or was it through bottling it at the last minute and hitting the brakes? Or just that they lack basic driving/riding skills and get it so hopelessly wrong that they shouldn't be let out on their own? I really don't know, but I do know that a 50mph limit will have no effect whatsoever on the screw-up rate at that bend, whereas good signage that indicates the 'S', plus the off-camber nature of the road might.

FWIW, I paid extra attention to the quality of the road markings on the road tonight as I drove home and I must say that the ones in the Bucks section of the road were generally pretty good. Once you cross the county line into Oxon it all goes to pot though, with the exception of the section between the left hander at the top of the hill through to the prison entrance at the bottom of the hill. From there through to the A41 the markings are virtually non-existant and in some places most of the centre line studs are missing for considerable distances. Maybe it's no coincidence that it's on this section that the most recent fatal occured?

Enjoy riding now, today is tomorrows golden age of motorcycling.
Maybee I should trade my GS in for a Honda 50, who needs anything that will go faster