What effect using leaded fuel

AberdeenAngus

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I've heard varying theories but can anyone confirm, based on personal experience, the effects of running a bike with a catalyser on leaded fuel.

As far as I understand, the cat will become contaminated and eventually cease to function but that will not affect the actual running of the bike, right ?
 
This is getting annoying.

I can't seem to get an answer the question above.

Depends who I ask I get varying answers.
Some say it'll poison the cat and that's it.
Some say it'll also damage the lambda sensor
Some say it'll 'foul' the exhasut and the bike wont run.
Some say it'll damage the engine big time.

Hmmmmmm.

A lot of theories. Does anyone have practical experience ?
 
I think the answer is there is no hard and fast answer.

If you are just heading to Morocco you should be ok. Unleaded is widely and reliably available.

Anywhere else get rid of the cat for 100% peace of mind. You can always put it back on after the trip. if you buy a second hand y-piece (or whatever) then sell it again after trip it won't even cost you anything.
 
I think the answer is there is no hard and fast answer.

I can't agree.
I think I just havn't asked the right people yet.

Also, i'm going further than Morocco.

These bikes are sold as 'round the world' machines.
Well, half the world runs on leaded fuel.

Now I expect to have to do some prep before running on leaded but why it it such a mystery ?

Would have thought hunners of folk have had this issue but all I can find is lots of folk asking the same questions and lots of theories from well meaning people who don't really know the answer.

This is an engineering problem. There is an answer

There's the small matter of the lambda sensor also !
Going to try the bike without them tonight and if the default map is acceptable, i'll remove them and plug the holes before going onto leaded. I think a cat-free replacement set of headers is the only answer.
 
Poisoning occurs when the catalytic converter is exposed to exhaust fumes containing substances that coat the working surfaces, encapsulating the catalyst so that it cannot contact and treat the exhaust. The most notable contaminant is lead, so vehicles equipped with catalytic converters can only be run on unleaded petrol. Other common catalyst poisons include manganese primarily from the petrol additive MMT, and silicon which can enter the exhaust stream if the engine has a leak allowing coolant into the combustion chamber. Phosphorus is another catalyst contaminant. Although phosphorus is no longer used in petrol, it (and zinc, another low-level catalyst contaminant) was until recently widely used in engine oil antiwear additives such as ZDDP. Beginning in 2006, a rapid phaseout of ZDDP in engine oils was begun.

Depending on the contaminant, catalyst poisoning can sometimes be reversed by running the engine under a very heavy load for an extended period of time. The increased exhaust temperature can sometimes liquefy or sublimate the contaminant, removing it from the catalytic surface. However, removal of lead deposits in this manner is usually not possible due to lead's high boiling point.

The oxygen sensor suffers by similar "muting" through surface contaminant of lead causing incorrect feedback readings, ergo incorrect fuel mapping from the Engine Management.

So, although you are likely to damage the Catalytic convertor through extended use of leaded fuel, you would never notice any difference as emission tests are not carried out on motorcycles(yet) nor do motorcycles have post convertor Oxygen sensors (yet)but you would probably benefit from replacing the Oxygen sensor and as BMW Motorcycles use a standard 4 wire Zirconia with standardised threads, these are available from as little as £14 as a pattern part.
 
Poisoning occurs when the catalytic converter is exposed to exhaust fumes containing substances that coat the working surfaces, encapsulating the catalyst so that it cannot contact and treat the exhaust. The most notable contaminant is lead, so vehicles equipped with catalytic converters can only be run on unleaded petrol. Other common catalyst poisons include manganese primarily from the petrol additive MMT, and silicon which can enter the exhaust stream if the engine has a leak allowing coolant into the combustion chamber. Phosphorus is another catalyst contaminant. Although phosphorus is no longer used in petrol, it (and zinc, another low-level catalyst contaminant) was until recently widely used in engine oil antiwear additives such as ZDDP. Beginning in 2006, a rapid phaseout of ZDDP in engine oils was begun.

Depending on the contaminant, catalyst poisoning can sometimes be reversed by running the engine under a very heavy load for an extended period of time. The increased exhaust temperature can sometimes liquefy or sublimate the contaminant, removing it from the catalytic surface. However, removal of lead deposits in this manner is usually not possible due to lead's high boiling point.

The oxygen sensor suffers by similar "muting" through surface contaminant of lead causing incorrect feedback readings, ergo incorrect fuel mapping from the Engine Management.

So, although you are likely to damage the Catalytic convertor through extended use of leaded fuel, you would never notice any difference as emission tests are not carried out on motorcycles(yet) nor do motorcycles have post convertor Oxygen sensors (yet)but you would probably benefit from replacing the Oxygen sensor and as BMW Motorcycles use a standard 4 wire Zirconia with standardised threads, these are available from as little as £14 as a pattern part.

Thanks Rob Mac
Brilliant answer.
Please don't take this the wrong way but, because of all the conflicting answers I have received could I just ask, is your knowledge based on practical experience with engines ?
 
I own Cotswold Vehicle Electronics, we specialise in fuel injection and engine management systems. Due to the elimination of Leaded petrol from our petrol stations in 2000 we don't see cat failures through lead poisoning and for the 1992 - 2000 period when there were both catalytic vehicles and leaded petrol it was also rare because the leaded pump nossles where too big to fit in unleaded filler necks! Most cat failures are due to misfires causing superheating (excess oxygen that hasn't been burnt in the combustion process entering the cat that then causes the oxygen to burn, causing the cat to heat up more, causing the next load of oxygen to burn quicker, causing more heat etc etc until you get a lovely cherry red glowing cat) The next most common is depletion of precious metals. Again, this does not effect running - only emissions.


I would recommend carrying spare O2 sensors (cheap as chips) and a GS911 diagnostic tool on your travels. You can then regularly monitor your O2 sensor outputs - as long as they're switching between 0v and 1v at a fast idle about 2 or 3 times a second that means everything is absolutley fine.

I don't recommend running your bike with O2's disconnected as the mapping/fuelling, ergo performance strategy, will be wrong from the start.
 
Yup, its less than a year old.

£16 that'll do me.
Typical. Someone told me from beemer they were £100 a side !

But,
As the lambda sensors will become contaminated and stop working, would I not be as well just to disconnect them while in leaded land and suffer the default map.
I'm going to give the bike a go with lambda sensors disconnected tonight. See how rough the default map is.

Whether I get a cat free set of headers......i'm in two minds.
 
Poisoning occurs when the catalytic converter is exposed to exhaust fumes containing substances that coat the working surfaces, encapsulating the catalyst so that it cannot contact and treat the exhaust. The most notable contaminant is lead, so vehicles equipped with catalytic converters can only be run on unleaded petrol. Other common catalyst poisons include manganese primarily from the petrol additive MMT, and silicon which can enter the exhaust stream if the engine has a leak allowing coolant into the combustion chamber. Phosphorus is another catalyst contaminant. Although phosphorus is no longer used in petrol, it (and zinc, another low-level catalyst contaminant) was until recently widely used in engine oil antiwear additives such as ZDDP. Beginning in 2006, a rapid phaseout of ZDDP in engine oils was begun.



.

Wow - copy and paste straight from Wikipedia

it is customary to cite the reference
 
Hello Dave, Dave, Hello, is that Dave. DAVE, DAVE, you there DAVE:blast:blast:blast

It would be nice to say enjoy Africa but it is already very obvious you won't :(
 
Leaded fuel

Just to add a bit to this thread.

I've heard lots of chat about the cat and leaded fuel over the years.

All I know is i've ridden my previous 1100 with cat across the world and although in countries such as Pakistan and India it was plinking a lot it never caused a problem. When I brought it back it flew through an MOT. My current 1150 has been round parts of Africa, Russia and Ukraine where the fuel is poor, again no problems with the cat. I have only recently in the past few weeks fitted a y piece. Don't really know why I did this as the weight is so low you don't feel it. Still, its done and i'll see if I feel the difference on the next ride.

Hope this helps.
 
Just to add a bit to this thread.

I've heard lots of chat about the cat and leaded fuel over the years.

All I know is i've ridden my previous 1100 with cat across the world and although in countries such as Pakistan and India it was plinking a lot it never caused a problem. When I brought it back it flew through an MOT. My current 1150 has been round parts of Africa, Russia and Ukraine where the fuel is poor, again no problems with the cat. I have only recently in the past few weeks fitted a y piece. Don't really know why I did this as the weight is so low you don't feel it. Still, its done and i'll see if I feel the difference on the next ride.

Hope this helps.

But does your 1100 have a lambda sensor :D
 
Disconnected my Lambda sensors for the ride into work this am.
No significant difference in performance. If anything, the default is probably making the engine run a bit rich - which makes sense.

Cat - I've decided against replacement headers. Just too expensive for the time i'll need them. Just accept the fact that the cat will get somewhat poisoned. Based on the experience of several folk, I shouldn't experience any noticeable effects.

Lambda sensors - Good concensus that these would be goosed by the lead. So, based on my experience this morning, I plan on taking them orf when get down to Africa and put em back on again when I get back into unleaded land.
If I suffer any real problems - i'll reconnect them and expect to replace them when I get home.

Anyone know the thread size for these sensors - to save me whipping em oot the noo !
 
Just had BM customer services respond to my enquiry about the above.

My question to them.
"OK so this is a bike designed to go round the world. What prep do I need to do to use leaded petrol."

Their response
"As you are talking about only using leaded for a limited time, don't worry about it. The kit is designed to take it. Any contamination that occurs will largely be burnt off over time when you go back onto unleaded."

So - that's what i'm going to do. Nothing.
Going to take my bike down as is.
Will get it serviced on my return and will report the findings.
 


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