Waypoints and silent via points

People have been telling me you can create routes without any waypoints by simply using via points or shaping points. Now I personally can't see point of not having my destination as a waypoint, it is after all where I really want to go. I want the device to take me there and not to ignore it if I go off route. Having said that I have tried making routes without waypoints on Mapsource and Basecamp to see what happens. These routes appear perfectly fine on the screen but always cause problems for me when I transfer them to the device.

Latest example of this is a route from where we are now staying in South Shields that will take us to Macclesfield. With just the start and end points as via points the route takes us directly there using mostly motorways. That would be fine but we have all day to make the journey so I preferred to adjust the route. To do this I added 5 via points and double checked by re calculating the route on the PC. When I transferred the route and looked it had reverted to the original route and had, in fact, only transferred the start and end via points. I then went back to the PC and changed the end point to a waypoint. This version appeared on the device with all the extra via points and therefore followed exactly the route I had planned. Simply adding one waypoint solved the problem.

This route will work tomorrow in just the same way as our route up here did on Friday. It will insist we go to the waypoints, on the way here we had 2, the pub for lunch and our friends house. Both of theses we actually wanted the device to take us to so a waypoint as opposed to a via point makes sense. None of the via points will be announced and if we miss one the device will seamlessly route us on towards the next. This is not because I used Basecamp to switch any announcements off (the "wont alert" function). Both routes were made using Mapsource just by dragging the route to where I wanted it and automatically are just shown on the map but not announced. This happens both on the car device and my 390.

I don't think my earlier devices did this so maybe Garmin have altered the way the devices work with via points created on Mapsource. For me it removes one advantages Basecamp offered in being able to silence all those via points. Mapsource does it for me without the extra faff needed in Basecamp. No doubt Basecamp users and supporters might think otherwise but I would refer those people to my use of "personally and "for me". My preferences and choices are just that, they are mine and I post this out of interest to compare the experiences of others in the hope we might share our knowledge.

John

Shaping nodes work brill on the NavV via Basecamp , but very important to inspect and set your TRANSFER PREFERENCES, (Basecamp) otherwise they may be stripped out.

John a couple of questions, when you say you create a route just using Via points , how are you doing it. and the same question for shaping.

if i create a route say from A to B , i will start my route using the route tool at A, and this method will apply in both mapsource and basecamp, i will then proceed with the route tool and left click on my chosen route at various points, such as just after a junction or intersection putting enough points to keep the route solid until i finish at my destination. Doing it this way i only get an announcement at my end of route or if i am not at the start of route it will ask to navigate to start of route. this works for me using a zumo 660 and 550 and also 2 Nuvis.

leedude03 said:

John a couple of questions, when you say you create a route just using Via points , how are you doing it. and the same question for shaping.

if i create a route say from A to B , i will start my route using the route tool at A, and this method will apply in both mapsource and basecamp, i will then proceed with the route tool and left click on my chosen route at various points, such as just after a junction or intersection putting enough points to keep the route solid until i finish at my destination. Doing it this way i only get an announcement at my end of route or if i am not at the start of route it will ask to navigate to start of route. this works for me using a zumo 660 and 550 and also 2 Nuvis.

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I usually start with a starting point and a finishing point as waypoints. Then I let Mapsource suggest route having set the preferences (usually for bike trips I just use Fastest Route and keep the selection slider in the middle) If I want to alter the route I simply use the pointer tool to highlight the route and then drag and drop onto the road I want. Repeat as required! I usually press re calculate to double check the route is exactly as required. I then transfer it to my device where it will show but not announce all of my via points but will follow my intended route precisely. So just the same as you really. It was just an observation that. for me at least, this did not work as intended without the destination being a waypoint.

I don't need any help, it works just as I want it but I would be interested in comments from others, especially those who can transfer working routes that don't have waypoints.

John

I use basecamp and set a start way point and an end way point. I then let basecamp create the route.

Then as i drag it around to suit my needs and wants each drag to creates a shaping point indicated by a black dot that is usually very difficult to spot when you want to amend a bit further

The Grey One said:

I usually start with a starting point and a finishing point as waypoints. Then I let Mapsource suggest route having set the preferences (usually for bike trips I just use Fastest Route and keep the selection slider in the middle) If I want to alter the route I simply use the pointer tool to highlight the route and then drag and drop onto the road I want. Repeat as required! I usually press re calculate to double check the route is exactly as required. I then transfer it to my device where it will show but not announce all of my via points but will follow my intended route precisely. So just the same as you really. It was just an observation that. for me at least, this did not work as intended without the destination being a waypoint.

I don't need any help, it works just as I want it but I would be interested in comments from others, especially those who can transfer working routes that don't have waypoints.

John

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I dont think i have ever used waypoints along a route, i may use one as an end point now and again. more often than not if i find a place i am going to i always create a waypoint using coordinates from google and name it and save it in favourites, that way its always there and i can use it to get back to a place i am stopping at, it helps if you are in a big city and dont know your way around the place.

Oh and my post was not an offer of help, thinking that you needed it, i was just replying to your post with an answer to your quote (I would be interested in comments from others, especially those who can transfer working routes that don't have waypoints). and asking a question of my own, because you did not actually state how you did things, and i thought you may have some way of doing things that may be better.

My latest Garmin satnav absolutely did not like routes created in Mapsource, they just didn't work properly. I've been forced over to Basecamp and find it fine now, more importantly the routes I create transfer over perfectly.

The start and end points are always seen and treated by the device as waypoints, irrespective of what a bod might call them.

I can transfer routes with (and without) intermediate waypoints at will and with 100% success. I use a Mac, BaseCamp and the latest generation Nav V. None of this is any help to the OP as he doesn't... But he doesn't need any help, so that's alright.

leedude03 said:

I dont think i have ever used waypoints along a route, i may use one as an end point now and again. more often than not if i find a place i am going to i always create a waypoint using coordinates from google and name it and save it in favourites, that way its always there and i can use it to get back to a place i am stopping at, it helps if you are in a big city and dont know your way around the place.

Oh and my post was not an offer of help, thinking that you needed it, i was just replying to your post with an answer to your quote (I would be interested in comments from others, especially those who can transfer working routes that don't have waypoints). and asking a question of my own, because you did not actually state how you did things, and i thought you may have some way of doing things that may be better.

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I didn't think you were offering help, I was just trying to make the point that what I do works for me,and it was not a request for assistance just clarification. . As I said I tried a route without a single waypoint and it didn't work. I shan't bother again, it's just as easy to use start and end waypoints as not. I don't understand how a route with no destination waypoint can always work. As far as I understand it a via point is somewhere you tell the device you would like to go to but can be ignored if you miss it. A waypoint is somewhere you want the device to direct you even if you take a wrong turning.

Therefore I use a waypoint for a lunch stop where I might be meeting others or have booked a table. I use a waypoint for my final destination because, like visiting friends this weekend I really do want to go there. So in this case I find the pub on the map (had to use OSM because it was missing from Garmin) and puts it's exact position as my one route waypoint- Likewise with my friend's house-this is also a waypoint that is used in the route and remains on the device for future use even if I delete the route. All other points along the route are via points which I see as telling my device this is my preferred route. If I do miss one I don't want to be turned around I want it to navigate to the next one instead.

It would be good if I know how you transferred a route with no waypoints without, as both my devices do, altering that route. This weekend's example is not the first time I have tried dispensing with waypoints with the same results. The transferred route does not keep all the via points I put in. Is this a Mapsource issue I wonder. I can answer that myself given more time I suppose but one of the great things about this forum is to be able to draw on the experience of others. If using Basecamp gets around this issue then I have learned something.

John

Wapping said:

The start and end points are always seen and treated by the device as waypoints, irrespective of what a bod might call them.

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That is not what I found. I am not talking about what this "bod" call them I am talking about how they are described both by Mapsource and my device The route properties on the PC clearly showed all as via points not waypoints. I then transferred the route to my device and only the first and last appeared. I opened the route on the device and it showed a first and last via point, all other via points were not there. I changed end point to a waypoint on Mapsource and the route transferred intact with all my via points shown as such and the endpoint of course shown as a waypoints.

I am not trying to score points or claim that Mapsource is better than Basecamp. I would just like us to be able to discus why this is so for me when others say they don't need a waypoint.

John

Link to two routes almost identical apart from where the via points are placed, one made in mapsource and one made with basecamp no waypoints used to make them, i sent these into my zumo 550 and 660 i did not import them into either unit, just tapped the where to and then custom routes icons and they are both there un altered. make of them what you will, i created them as i have said in a previouse post above, open either of these routes in either basecamp or mapsource and you will see there are no waypoints in the route properties, when transfered to either sat navs they produce a start and end point but these are not waypoints, the routes when sent do not alter and are there in their entirety no need to add waypoints to get them to work and the via points will not announce, this applies to my satnavs and how they are configured. I can even import them back and they will not alter in any way.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3mjerdbq81g8dq7/Untitled.gdb?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pcq0wydvdh6c3rn/Ojedo to Ojedo1.gpx?dl=0

and for those who say they have problems starting and ending a route in the same place, it can be done with no issue. and even for a figure 8 as the 2 links below show, and these were done in the same way as above no waypoints and work as they should, starting and ending in the same place.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/thh2w9pcjk0knv0/riano2.gdb?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lz7ixzy26sb50q3/Riaño to Riaño1.gpx?dl=0

So what does all this mean for me.

1 i can create a route with no waypoints and transfer it to my devices with zero problems

2 when i transfer a route with no waypoints my devices do not put any waypoints in for me

3 when i transfer a route with 3 or 33 or even more via points i end up with the same amount that were put on the route in the first place on my devices

4 My devices know that my first and last point are exactly that, and i dont need to add a start or finish point they do it, but not as waypoints.

5 all the above happens no matter whether i use basecamp or mapsource and all software and devices have the same maps and the same settings.

6 mapsource and basecamp have no problems routing from and too the same point whether it be a circular or figure of 8 route.

7 The start and end points on the routes above are not waypoints as proved by looking at the route properties or looking in the window to the left of the map in basecamp or mapsource, you will see no waypoints. they will only become waypoints if i make them so.

8 I transfer all of my routes from either basecamp or mapsource the same way, i select transfer and then send to device selecting the route (there will be no waypoints to select in this instance as there are none) when transfer is complete i unplug the nav and let it boot, then go straight to where to and then custom routes and they are there no need to go to my data and import them. it does not recalculate the route .

I will also make a bold statement that if you put enough via points in and i mean enough, no matter what your settings are it will not alter the route. There i have said it, I will wait for the flack to start.

I hope that all made sense.

Spot on, Leedude. I match your experience exactly.

The only very slight difference between us is over whether the start and end points are waypoints or not. I think they are but only in as much as the way BaseCamp on a Mac and how my Nav V treats them. Here's what I find:

1. I create a route on my Mac from A to B say Calais to St Vith by clicking on Calais and then on St Vith, the magenta line being created according to my presences.

2. I then drag the magenta line to go through Chimay on the way. The route is now A (Calais) to C (St Vith) via B (Chimay)

3. If I then go into the route's info I can see that A (Calais) B (Chimay) and C (St Vith) are all announced. In effect all three are waypoints and all three will appear as favourites in my device.

4. If I then go into the route information again, I can highlight the A, B anc C and ask BaseCamp to make all three unannounced, turning each from waypoints into shaping points. It will make B unannounced (a shaping point, that will not appear in my favourites) but leave A and B alone, leaving them as waypoints.

5. I can then drag the routes via St Quentin and Givet, so it's now A (Calais) to E (St Vith) via B (St Quentin) C (Chimay) D (Givet) and on to E (St Vith). If I then go back into the route's information, the two new points B and D will appear as waypoints. I can change them to shaping points, as usual. I cannot change A or E - my start and end points - which are stuck as waypoints.

6. I can make the same changes to the route from within my Nav V, changing B, C and D back into announced waypoints or back into unannounced shaping points. If I do so, the device will run a recalculation each time. That won't matter as my preferences on my device match those on my Mac.

7. If I have A, B, C, D and E as announced waypoints and I run the route, on start up, the device will ask me to which of the five waypoints I would like to go to first. If I run the route it will display in a list form (I forget what the Nav V calls it) broken up into sections A to B, B to C, C to D and finally D to E. If I have B, C and D as waypoints, I can chose to skip any of B, C or D by touching the skip option.

8. If I change B, C or D into unannounced shaping points (I cannot change A or E, which will stay as waypoints) then the ones I change will not be shown as options of where I would like to go to first.

9. If I have B, C and D as waypoints and ride the route, as I pass through them on my way to E, the route will no longer display the magenta line for anywhere that I have already ridden; anything behind me becomes invisible. As I see it, the device sees A to B and B to C as two distinct and separate routes, going together to form a part of A to E. Once I have ridden the road A to B it can safely no longer display it as I won't need it. But, if I have B, C and D only as shaping points, the device will always display all the magenta line in its full length, even if I have already ridden parts of it.

This suggests to me that any start and end point (which all routes must have, of course) are always waypoints; anything inbetween can be a waypoint or a shaping point, according to how the operator (me) wants to have them.

Other than that, we I am in complete agreement with you. I actually suspect we are both in agreement with each other, just using different words for the same thing.

To get back to the OP's question / observation; like you I too can send the whole lot (waypoints and / or shaping points) to my device and run the routes without any problems.


PS The way modern GPS devices treat waypoint favouites is interesting. They can be stand alone, say a cafe in the middle of France, or linked into routes. In other words, the waypoints will appear in favourites and each can have their own single or multiple properties. Each of these multiple properties can be changed.

Wapping on any of the above routes i have linked to, when you open them in basecamp on your mac do you see any waypoints in the route properties or in the route window next to the map, i was wondering if its a mac thing as i do not see any waypoints in either basecamp or mapsource. or is this device related as i do not have anything newer than a 660 for bike, i do have a new nuvi for car and this behaves the same, they do however show a start and end point, now i dont know what i would call these, are they way points or start and end points or even via points, but whether i import the route after sending or not, the start and end point do not go to my favourites as they do on your device and as they would do on my device if i set them as waypoints.

I am away in France at the moment. I'll have a look ASAP

leedude03 said:

Link to two routes almost identical apart from where the via points are placed, one made in mapsource and one made with basecamp no waypoints used to make them, i sent these into my zumo 550 and 660 i did not import them into either unit, just tapped the where to and then custom routes icons and they are both there un altered. make of them what you will, i created them as i have said in a previouse post above, open either of these routes in either basecamp or mapsource and you will see there are no waypoints in the route properties, when transfered to either sat navs they produce a start and end point but these are not waypoints, the routes when sent do not alter and are there in their entirety no need to add waypoints to get them to work and the via points will not announce, this applies to my satnavs and how they are configured. I can even import them back and they will not alter in any way.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3mjerdbq81g8dq7/Untitled.gdb?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pcq0wydvdh6c3rn/Ojedo to Ojedo1.gpx?dl=0

Click to expand...

Yes I can do all that, I can open it in Basecamp or Mapsource, re calculate it and it looks the same, but with any circular route without a waypoint along the route I have ridden causes problems if I stray off the route. Fine on the PC but not good on the device. On the road the route works fine up to the point I turn off the route, maybe only by a few yards, for a coffee stop for instance. Then it recalculates to the end point and ignores any other via points. Maybe this is because there is an actual end waypoint rather than just another via point. If so then Wapping's theory that the system treats the start and end point as waypoints does not hold. I will have to try it out to test this. What I can't do is test the routes posted. I will have to do it with local routes.

Today's route with a start and end point worked as expected although one via point did get announced. I have checked and I had managed to place this point off the road rather than directly on it. Again I will have to test this to see if placing a via point like this causes the via point to be announced

But any of the comments so far do not explain why my route did not transfer correctly until I had changed the end point to a waypoint. Or answered my question about how via points made in Mapsource don't get announced-I am pretty sure that they did in the past. Mapsource has not been updated so is it the device software that has changed?

John

i have tried to give you examples of routes i have created and given the way how i create them, i have also posted links to said routes, i have tried to explain what happens when i create and transfer routes with a reference to way points and via points. You dont say if you have had the same issue with any of the routes i have posted you dont even say whether you have tried them and you have not given a link to a route of your own that you know would give you this problem and display the stated faults, but what you do say is.
(Quote) any of the comments so far do not explain why my route did not transfer correctly until I had changed the end point to a waypoint. Or answered my question about how via points made in Mapsource don't get announced-I am pretty sure that they did in the past.
I feel sure that i can not explain the first part of this quote as i have not got the route thats giving you the fault, or any feedback about if any or none of my linked routes display these same issues. with reference to the second part of the quote i would say that if you place a via point anywhere on the route and that said via point displays as a green dot it will announce if its displayed as a black dot it will not announce, i believe but not 100% certain on this, if the placement of the point is slightly off the road it will display green and announce.

my above post about mapsource is incorrect, the green dots are infact via points, and are actually a point on the map that has got data embedded there in the map eg an address or village name ect, this point will announce,whereas the normal shaping points will not.
All this confusion stems from Garmin changing their naming conventions on the fly, when they shifted product. infact take a look at their defenitions it may help.

POI - A formal Point Of Interest. An entry in the internal POI database with a name, location and usually other information associated with it.

Waypoint - Any arbitrary point on the map that you have designated you want to keep track of. Usually stored in the "Favorites" or "My Locations" or whatever your personal navigation device calls its waypoint storage database. Your device will usually allow you to store such things as the location, any arbitrary name you want to supply and other information such as address, phone number, category(ies) and a symbol/icon to be used when displaying it.

Shaping Point - In Mapsource, to "shape" a route to go exactly where you want there are a couple of methods. Just as with the personal navigation device, you can edit the route's properties to insert Via points (these are not shaping points although they do serve a similar purpose). You can also just use the route tool to click on spots on the map to force the shape of a route. When you do that, you are using a location that is not already in one of the searchable location databases. Mapsource does not force you to add these points to any of the formal databases. It simply inserts the actual coordinates invisibly into the route. These are shaping points.
Shaping points occur in another, automatic, fashion as well. Even when you only designate a two-point route, e.g. go from Point A to Point B, there will usually be multiple places, usually intersections, where a change in direction is required. When building the route, the personal navigation device (or Mapsource/Basecamp) will automatically include all of these points in the route.

Via Point - A point used to create a multipoint route, e.g. Go from Point A to Point B via some other arbitrary point(s) that you will designate. If your personal navigation device supports multipoint routing, the via point can be a POI, an existing waypoint/favorite or any other form of location that is searchable on your device, e.g. address, intersection/junction, custom POI, etc. In most cases, to use something as a via point it must already exist in one of the devices' searchable databases.

so what i glean from this is

a shaping point is an invisible point on a route that does not announce unless it is placed on a point on the map that has embedded data a town point or village or poi in that case it becomes a via point and will then anounce,this can be turned off in basecamp, if a shaping point is put on a spot where there is no data(middle of a field off road) it becomes a waypoint, this only happens in mapsource. , only the waypoint would be saved to your favourites.

A via point is a point that will announce and will not be saved to your favourites, in reality you are dropping it on a point that already exists. in basecamp you can turn off announce

A waypoint a point you select as a go to point or a point that you want on your route you can edit and re name it, this point can be anywhere on the map and can be saved in favourites or wherever depending on unit, and will announce,

all this is how i see it, it may be all wrong but to me it makes sense and seems to apply to my setup.

In reply to leedude 03

Unless I go to the area there is no way I can properly test your routes. If you read my previous post you will see I said this. Running them as a simulation does not allow for problems that might be caused by straying from the designated route. I cannot post the route I mentioned because it would involve giving the private addresses of friends and relatives, and unless you are in that area you could not test it. I will try to find an example for you but I would stress that to test it fully you need to ride the route and experiment by taking a wrong turn.

No amount of theory and simulation can match practical experience. I am trying to share my experience of using routes and hoping to learn from those of others. As we al know there is more than one way to use a SatNav. We all tend to find something that works for us and then remain within that comfort zone. In explaining what happens with my routes I am not suggesting others should follow my example, it is more a case of expressing my interest in how things work.

On my Mapsource every point I make by dragging and dropping is called a via point in route properties. They all appear on the device screen and are not announced. As you say if I place a via point point on a place name it becomes a green dot. These don't get announced either.

My normal method for an A to B route is to have both as waypoints. My house is the usual start point so that is already there, I then locate my destination precisely and make that waypoint. By highlighting the two points I can use the "make a route" function to create a route between those two waypoints. I then drag and drop, creating via points along my preferred route until I am happy. This has worked for me without problems, when I start the route it will ask me if I want to go to the next destination, I press Go and the device takes me along the roads I selected. It takes me to all the via points which I can see on the map as I go. If I miss one it just carries on to the next until I reach my destination.

Because I am interested in what others do I tried creating a route using the routing tool which had no destination waypoint but had another via point instead. That route did not transfer correctly, some of the via points were missing and the route reverted to a more direct but less interesting version. When I changed the destination to a waypoint the route transferred intact. Maybe there isn't an answer, maybe my versions of the software just work that way. If so then I will just carry on doing what works for me, but if there is some other way I would be interested to know about it. I am happy to use waypoints as I always take great care to ensure they are accurate, I suspect some of the dislike of waypoints comes from folk placing them in a casual manner which then causes the device to do strange things

John