1150GS - FAIL TO START - BEEN STOP START RUNNING ERRANDS ALL DAY

1150GS – 2001 – single spark – non-ABS
Hi All

The other day, I went to start my moto and got a big clunk and then nothing.
Ignition off and tried again. Same.
The fuel pump didn’t prime.
Then I heard some relays chattering away under the seat area.

I placed a finger tip on Relay 4 (Load-Relief), Relay 5 (horn) and Relay 6 (Fuel Pump) but was not able to determine which relay was actually chattering away. I pulled them all and re-installed but no change – still no start. I didn’t pull relay 7 (Motronic) as I didn’t feel it chattering.

The RPM tacho needle would go up to between 4000 and 6000rpm (exactly what I don’t remember)

I don’t think it is Relay 5 (horn)
I did check all the fuses and they appear ok,

I ended up pushing the moto home, about 5KM / 3 miles and then parked him up because I was going traveling and haven’t been able to further investigate this.
I had no previous indications of a problem starting or running and this has got me beat at the moment.

Previously, the magnets fell off the starter motor and I fixed that (new parts) about 3 years ago the HES failed, rewired that with new aviation wires and connectors. I did move the fuel tank aft so I could remove the front shock, but didn’t remove it.

Any ideas or suggestions?
Could one of the relays be stuffed and need replacing?

Thanks

I know its obvious, but you haven't mentioned the battery, is it flat? or low charge?

Have a look at this:

http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/how-to-test-hall-effect-sensor.688232/

Obviously, check your battery voltage or that the headlight comes on with key on.

The fuel pump won't prime if the fuel tank electrical connector is bad, fuel pump fuse or relay ... or if the Motronic relay doesn't energize.

The Motronic relay won't energize if the kill switch is bad, or the Motronic relay or fuse, or if the sidestand switch is bad or if the transmission isn't in neutral when the sidestand is down.

Your bike going "clunk" could mean a bad battery or the internal gear cover of the starter dropping onto the starter armature.

Not clear about tach jumping.

I forgot - the head light comes on when ignition on, and then goes off after the start attempt.
I did wiggle the side stand switch because it was easily accessible and did also switch the kill switch - both to no avail.


Yes, it could be the starter but a) I think I would at least feel / hear a clunk as the solonoid tries to move b) I had that all apart not too long ago and gave it all a good clean and check over.
I don't think it is a starter motor because the fuel pump doesn't prime, and it should prime as soon as the ignition is energized.

Thanks Roger - its a start at this stage

My initial thoughts would be battery or poor connection somewhere. Relays chatter when the voltage is too low for them to operate. As the battery internal resistance increases with age, then there is a corresponding voltage drop when high current is drawn from the battery.

If it's not battery, then I think you might have either a bad earth or cable break somewhere. Your problems look like they only manifest themselves when you ask for a high current.

Your statement on the action of your lights is a bit misleading.
When you press the start button, the load relay should deenergises, and kill the lights. When you release the start button, the load relay reenergises and the lights should come back on.

Thank you for the replies so far

I believe the battery is fine because I had no indication of difficulty starting.
I don't remember how old the battery is, pretty sure it is not more than 18months old.

If the connection to the fuel pump was suspect, the engine would still turn over.

If the starter motor was stuck, then the fuel pump would still prime when the ignition goes on. The clunk I heard wasn't the type I would associate with the starter motor. Yes, it could be and is worth checking.

I shall have to check the fuse when I get home.
and then - figure out why the fuse failed.
Yes, it could be the kill switch, will have to investigate that.
Yes, it could be the HES wiring and worth checking, though I don't think so due to re-wiring at a while back using aviation wire and crimps and connector plugs.

I cant think / remember the logic of the side stand switch - I think it still starts with the side stand extended. I think that with the side stand extended and then a gear selected, that is when it shuts down. I am not sure.

I cant think / remember the logic of the side stand switch - I think it still starts with the side stand extended. I think that with the side stand extended and then a gear selected, that is when it shuts down. I am not sure.[/QUOTE]

All being well you can start your bike while resting on the side stand as far as the bike is in neutral, the side stand switch should only kill the engine if you select a gear !! in some case it becomes stuck and prevent starting all the time

Side stand switch.

The whole purpose of the side stand switch is to prevent you riding off with it extended (down). So if you stick it in gear with the engine running, as soon as release the clutch to the point where the clutch switch is open, the power to the motronic is cut and the engine shuts down.

The starter motor will also not turn the engine over, if the bike is in gear with the side stand down.

Pretty obvious stuff if you think about it.


Ian

Hay Ewe said:

Thank you for the replies so far

......I shall have to check the fuse when I get home.
and then - figure out why the fuse failed............

Click to expand...

Which fuse has failed.

I wont be home for another three days
will advise then

ok, home now and getting in to this
Checking the easy things first
It seems that I have a different problem now that it has been sat for 10 days.
the clock was displaying just fine.
I put the key in, turn the key to the ignition and the clock goes out after a moment and the RPM Tacho flicks up to about 2000rpm and then back to zero., no headlight and no start or anything.
I am going to work through the list I developed and report below.

Fuses - all fuses are fine

When I turn the ignition on, no lights come on, the clock display goes blank
battery is 25months old
battery voltage is 12.62 volts
(the above three items could indicate a duff battery - but I would expect the dash panel to remain unless the battery was really dead - but it has 12.62volts)

engine rotates by hand fine (there fore starter motor unlikely to be locked in to flywheel)

I removed the HES system (lots of black dust in there - alternator belt could have been a bit tighter I think)
and checked that (dodgy HES seems to be indicated by weird indications on the engine RPM Tacho)
All the connections seem fine, am getting continuity through the pins.

I have bypassed the side stand switch following the 1150GS section of this document http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom/SSIBD.pdf

I have just tried a jump start off the Land Rover (no bashing please) and same result as above (no start, no nothing)
The Land Rover would have given it plenty of oompph, but no change.
I am thinking that the 'ignition off' circuit is fine, enough to display the clock.
but when I go to the ignition on position on the key, nothing. This indicates to me that the electrical path the main system is not working.

Relay 4 - Load Relief was one of the relays that was chattering away, possible THE one but I wasn't able to identify it for sure (see more below - have id'd it)
yep, checked that and with a good connection (two bits of wire to the battery) latches / un-latches and no chattering. However, if I didn't get a good connection, it did chatter.

Relay 6 - Fuel Pump - as per relay 4
Relay 7 - Motronic - as per relay 4
Relay 3 - Starter Motor - as per relay 4
(thank you for the diagram of the relays and fuses http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php/354312-1100-1150-fuse-and-relay-What-and-where! )

So now I am thinking that there is a problem with a switched circuit - starting at the ignition barrel because in X position (ignition off) it is ok, but when in Y position, nothing.
Now I think of it, the key switch had been stiff sometimes but of course, I didn't think anything of it.
If there is a problem there, that could be the reason the jump start didn't work, because other systems were not being energized.

I then looked at removing the ignition barrel, but that looks difficult. There are only 5 wires coming from it and so I am going access the connector block and check the wire continuity there. ewww, each of those pins in the connector block is pretty dirty and ver-de-gris. needs a clean first.
I then thought about just making a circuit, the red and green wires (from here http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php/313367-Colour-R1150GS-Wiring-Diagram)
and got the sound of some relay(s) latching but still no start and the RPM Tacho deflecting for a moment.
OK, well, maybe that rules out the ignition barrel. (cleaned the pins anyway)

I then turned the ignition off and pulled the relays out completely in this order
removed relay 4, ignition on, hear a latch, clock goes off and tacho needle deflects momentarily
removed relay 5, ignition on, hear a latch, clock goes off and tacho needle deflects momentarily
removed relay 6, ignition on, hear a latch, clock goes off and tacho needle deflects momentarily
removed relay 7, ignition on, DO NOT hear a latch, clock remains ON, tacho needle does not move

Relay 7 is for the motronic system.
hmmmI then re-install the relays in this order
Relay 5 (horn) - no change, nothing
Relay 6 (fuel pump) - that time I pressed the start button and the relay engerised (fuel tank removed so dont know if the fuel pump primed (and not able to id the wires for the pump)
Relay 4 (load relief) - relay buzzed, RPM tacho climbed to 6500rpm, clock stayed on. I pressed the start button - nothing

I then re-inserted relay 7 (motronic) and got the same original results.
That tells me that the load relief system has / is causing the problem

mmm, so next think.....
keeping it in the theme of simple stuff,
a search on ADV suggest to swap the horn and load releif relay. Even though I function tested them, wont hurt - as expected - no change
Fuse #3 got a few mentions, re-racked that a few times - no change

I found this on ADV:-
There are a few tricks you can do in the fuse box to check whether the ignition switch is faulty or not.

Remove fuse 1 and 3.
If you jump from the rear position of fuse 3 to the front position of fuse 1 then the battery and oil lights should illuminate.
If you jump from the rear position of fuse 3 to the rear position of fuse 1 then the lights and Abs should power up.
Assuming both these work then I would suspect your ignition switch
Nope - no change when trying that
(this thread for reference http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/gs1150-adventure-dead-electrics.1114648/#post-28348614)

reading all of this thread, i am thinking a problem with the ignition wiring system - as suggested by the knowledgeable steptoe.
mmm, not to trace that wiring harness......

so I went out, ignition on, Relay 4 (load relief) buzzing away whilst I wiggled all the wires around the orange connector from the key barrel.
Relay 4 started buzzing higher and higher and the RPM Tacho went up to 6000rpm.
I pressed the starter button and the buzzing changed frequency ever-so-slightly
For some time now I have not had the panel over the starter motor installed - just never put it back on.
For some reason, i thought to remove the single black wire from the starter motor solonoid.

NOW, when ignition on, I get a single click of a relay latching, the clock stays on AND I get gear position indicator on and the RPM Tacho stays at zero.
I have removed the starter motor and dissconnected the wiring
Now time for dinner

New suspect item - starter motor assembly - or the wire that connects to (at the moment buggered if I can remember what that wire does)
i just pulled the starter motor apart and the bendix gear / throw out shaft thing - gummed up SO stiff and tight.
Bit of light oil to work it, then clean the shaft up and now it moves just fine
I have posted in the starter motor thread (the sticky at the top) about cleaning it
I am not sure if this is the problem though - the single wire is connected to the solonoid part and when I disconnected the wire, the problem changed
I want to clean the solonoid some how.
Looking at that now
In the mean while I have reassembled the starter assembly and re-installed

Well, I cleaned all that at least
No change, still a problem
In the mean while I have reassembled the starter assembly and re-installed

I dont know at the moment
there seems to be a link in the starter system / load relief relay / single wire on starter solonoid

I don't know where to go from here, suggestions welcome

I feel pretty sure that I can rule out the battery now

thanks

Hay Ewe said:

When I turn the ignition on, no lights come on

but when I go to the ignition on position on the key, nothing.
Now I think of it, the key switch had been stiff sometimetimes

so I went out, ignition on, Relay 4 (load relief) buzzing away whilst I wiggled all the wires around the orange connector from the key barrel.
Relay 4 started buzzing higher and higher and the RPM Tacho went up to 6000rpm.
I pressed the starter button and the buzzing changed frequency ever-so-slightly

Click to expand...

As steptoe said and your own test above shows, there is likely problem with the ignition switch wiring. Why else would wiggling the wires cause a relay to buzz and tacho to flick?

You can buy just this part of the loom (I keep a second hand spare in my panniers on long trips).

Also, there are a group of earth wires connected in the short part of the loom near the headstock. They can corrode and I would imagine give the the weird faults you have. A search on here should give more info on this, as I am acting as a keyboard mechanic having never experianced the corroded earths.

Hay Ewe, That's pretty good detective work.

The way the starter, starter relay and load relay interact is as follows, see the electrical path here: http://www.mac-pac.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/R1150RT-Electric-Diagram-V3_3.pdf.

The black wire at the starter is connected to the low resistance starter solenoid. When the key is on, but the starter button isn't pressed, the voltage should be 0V and the Load Relay should be energize and the headlight should be on. The key provides +12V to the Load relay and the starter solenoid provides ground.

But when the starter button is pressed, its relay is energized, which connects +12V to the starter solenoid, which should energize the starter. Because the Load relay now has +12V on both sides of its coil, the Load relay should drop out and the headlight should go out.

I think you'll be better off debugging this with a DVM and a jumper that you can install in place of each relay.

Remove the Load relay, turn the ignition key on, measure the voltage at the Black wire (should be 0v) then measure the voltage at the black wire while you press the starter button should be 12V.

Key off, put a jumper in place of the load relay, do the headlights come on? They should.

The black wire on the starter motor has two functions.

1. It provides an earth path for the load relief relay through the starter solenoid to the engine casing earth.

2. When the Start button is pressed. The Start relay pulls in and sends +12 volts to the black wire. This does two things. A. Deenergises the load relief relay because the relay has 12volts either side of the relay coil. And B. Provides +12 volts to the starter solenoid to engage the Starter.

If your load relief relay is buzzing or chattering, I would suspect that the solenoid to your starter motor is either the problem or the black wire has a fault, broken or corroded giving a high resistance.

ok, todays effort
combined with some other messages I got and the above replies.

I took a wire directly from the small tab terminal on the starter motor (black wire) and connected it to the negative on the battery.
No change.
I did that so that I could avoid removing the battery box tray, but it looks like I need to remove that and follow that black wire to the earth point.
Here goes
not the easiest task, am sure that some german engineer type has a reason for making it like that, with the bowden box under the battery tray, anywya
the earth point on top of the engine block, looked pretty good to me, cleaned it up anyway.

the black single wire from the starter assembly goes up in to a loom that goes to the relay / fuse box
to get access to that, the rear sub frame needs to be removed, really don't want to do that so now going to see if I can check continuity on that wire
it would be real handy to know where the other end of that black wire is. The library is closed and the have a copy of the Clymer manual. have to get that tomorrow

Looking at the diagram in this thread, http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php/313367-Colour-R1150GS-Wiring-Diagram
it goes to the Starter Relay, pin 87

so I put my multimeter thing on the solonoid WITH THE WIRE ATTACHED and the other probe in the connection for pin 87 and I get a reading
I then remove the single black wire and put one probe on the solonoid connection and pin 87 - and get a reading
I then try the wire its self, still to pin 87 and get nothing
Is this telling me that the wire is buggered, or am I looking at the wrong place?
I check back to that wire diagram and it certainly seems I am looking at the right place
From the other information that I have, it certainly seems that black wire runs directly to pin 87
ehh, just checked and that was the 1100GS wire diagram - grrr

So, if I do need to replace that wire, it looks like I need to gain access to the underside of the fuse / relay box, which looks as though I need to remove the rear subframe
If I want to properly trace that wire, I need to gain access to the underside of the fuse / relay box.

FFS
Oh well, at least it hasn't happened in the bush in the middle of buttfuck no where.

And then I thought of something super sneaky.
If I stick wire in the female ends where the relay locates and connect the other ends to the male pins on the relay, and then a new separate wire directly from the starter solonoid to pin 87 on the start relay - that will prove it.

yeah, i kinda impress myself sometimes
I dont have any insulated wire though, just stainless steel lock wire......
so I cut some lengths, electrical tape over each and had a go - its not pretty, maybe later I shall put up a picture

NOTHING!
a wire directly from the solonoid post to pin 87 doesn't change anything!
I connected the single black wire to the solonoid post and then the wire from the female part to the male part of pin 87 and got the load relief relay buzzing.

this tells me that pin 87 is connected from else where and the 1100GS and 1150GS are different wiring in that regards

maybe I got it wrong, maybe it does go to earth and the female / male pin 87 is something different.
when I last checked this, I connected it to the negative on the battery

nope

Something is happening because when ignition on, something latches, and then a second or two later, unlatches, probably the fuel pump relay.

this has got me beat.

If I took it to the stealership and they plugged it in to the computer diagnostic, what would that tells us?

If you can stick some pictures up I can compare them with my loom which is off the bike just now.

Nin

i dont have any pictures showing the loom - but thank you for the offer.
The same thread over on ADV - here http://advrider.com/index.php?threa...n-stop-start-running-errands-all-day.1146319/
has the same write up but since then I, with help from Mouthfulloflake - have been testing the starter motor / solonoid system
seems its buggered

Hay Ewe said:

ok, todays effort

yeah, i kinda impress myself sometimes
I dont have any insulated wire though, just stainless steel lock wire......
so I cut some lengths, electrical tape over each and had a go - its not pretty, maybe later I shall put up a picture

Click to expand...

Fuck me Betty! No, no. Don't put a picture up please. When you rewired your Hall Sensor did you use the same type of wire? (Its a wind up isn't it? )

you gotta do what you gotta do

for re-wiring the HES, its all aviation wire and connectors

yes - I really did use lock wire with electrical tape